Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

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NoisyNav
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:07 am

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by NoisyNav » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:37 am

Snowbadger wrote:
kabur glasgow wrote:Can anyone else share their experience with Push 2 on Live 10, in relation to the sensitivity and playability of the pads?

I'm thinking of making the upgrade.
.. For finger drumming I really like the playability of the pads on my Akai MPK249 and MPK Mini MkII. In the meanwhile I'm always watching for announcements of either a Push 3 or a 64-pad Maschine Studio (was really close to pulling the trigger on a Maschine Mk3 but decided to go the Push 2 route for the tight Ableton integration and 64 pad layout).
Exactly why i am thinking of going with MK3..heard great things about the hardware quality. I have the Live 9 ..the upgrade to 10 seems expensive. At least for now. unless they drop Push 3 with mk3 type screens + touch + the functionalities mentioned above by other folks.

kabur glasgow
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:09 pm

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by kabur glasgow » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:18 am

I don't think a Push 3 is on the way any time soon. I'd suggest you to get a Push 1 second hand. I've had Push 1, Push 2, Linnstrument and Launchpad Pro. Push 1 pads are the best.

jestermgee
Posts: 3056
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:38 am

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by jestermgee » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:28 am

kabur glasgow wrote:Push 1 pads are the best.
Down to personal opinion really.

I've owned (in a pad controller):

- Akai MPD32
- Korg nanoPad
- Maschine Studio
- Push 1
- Push 2

To me, Push 2 (when suitably tuned) has beaten them all with the MPD32 being the worst investment I made until I upgraded the pads with friggin cork inserts. Akai hardware beyond the early 2000s sux (personal opinion).

Machinesworking
Posts: 11074
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Location: Seattle

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by Machinesworking » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:36 pm

jestermgee wrote:Akai hardware beyond the early 2000s sux (personal opinion).
I can't vouch for the MPD, but I recently replaced the M-Audio Prokeys 88 with an AKAI MPK88 piano key style controller, and the drum pads on it are really very nice, that was unexpected.

I'm currently trying to sell my Maschine Studio. What's it been? 8 years? Maschine still cannot compose a song in multiple time signatures, if you host it in a DAW like Ableton it will stumble and flip the beat around at the Scene change if pretty much any meter change in time signature is happening. Basically Maschine can't do what drum machines could do in the 80's. :evil:

kabur glasgow
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:09 pm

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by kabur glasgow » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:48 pm

jestermgee wrote:
kabur glasgow wrote:Push 1 pads are the best.
Down to personal opinion really.

To me, Push 2 (when suitably tuned) has beaten them all with the MPD32 being the worst investment I made until I upgraded the pads with friggin cork inserts. Akai hardware beyond the early 2000s sux (personal opinion).
True.

What do you use the Push 2 for? I found it had the same problem as Launchpad Pro. After playing a note, you'd have to hold it at that pressure or the note would release. It resulted in double strikes or just not sustaining the note. I prefer the button size and spacing on the Launchpad Pro. Easier to finger. Haha.

jestermgee
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Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by jestermgee » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:11 am

Easier to finger. Haha.
That's what she said....

I'm not a super player of anything so mainly I use it for drums with some fiddly ideas for leads, guitars and pianos etc but I much prefer a keyboard.

This is why it's a personal opinion area. There are probably performance issues I am not aware of because I don't play as proficiently as others. I'm not a musician. But in terms of drums I use ToonTracks quite a lot and it has a lot of velocity layering on some of the big kits which sounds very real if you can get the pressure correct and Push2 has done a fine job for me at that, better than the others I listed, Push 1 was probably second best and Maschine I don't really get into.

kabur glasgow
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Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:09 pm

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by kabur glasgow » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:43 am

I'm not a super player of anything so mainly I use it for drums with some fiddly ideas for leads, guitars and pianos etc but I much prefer a keyboard.
This is probably why you haven't experienced issues with Push 2 – once anything percussive is hit, the release is instantaneous anyway, so this problem of having to keep pressing a played note hard to sustain it isn't relevant. Since you play keyboard as your main instrument, you maybe haven't noticed this issue.

I'm using Push 1 (x2) as a keyboard for expressive playing of sampled and modelled acoustic instruments. This means I've gotta be able to play a complex chord and sustain the included notes without the ends of my fingers turning white.

As I've said before on this thread, it's simply a firmware issue. The pads on the Push 1, Push 2 and Launchpad Pro (probably some others too) are the same. The pads are only capably of measuring pressure – any other information (velocity for example) is derivative.

It's why there should always be editable source code – it let's you tune your instrument.

jestermgee
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Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by jestermgee » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:14 pm

kabur glasgow wrote:
I'm not a super player of anything so mainly I use it for drums with some fiddly ideas for leads, guitars and pianos etc but I much prefer a keyboard.
This is probably why you haven't experienced issues with Push 2 – once anything percussive is hit, the release is instantaneous anyway, so this problem of having to keep pressing a played note hard to sustain it isn't relevant. Since you play keyboard as your main instrument, you maybe haven't noticed this issue.

I'm using Push 1 (x2) as a keyboard for expressive playing of sampled and modelled acoustic instruments. This means I've gotta be able to play a complex chord and sustain the included notes without the ends of my fingers turning white.

As I've said before on this thread, it's simply a firmware issue. The pads on the Push 1, Push 2 and Launchpad Pro (probably some others too) are the same. The pads are only capably of measuring pressure – any other information (velocity for example) is derivative.

It's why there should always be editable source code – it let's you tune your instrument.
Adjusting the sensitivity of the pads does not help?

blof_eld
Posts: 47
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:59 am

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by blof_eld » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:17 am

kabur glasgow wrote:The pads on the Push 1, Push 2 and Launchpad Pro (probably some others too) are the same. The pads are only capably of measuring pressure – any other information (velocity for example) is derivative.

It's why there should always be editable source code – it let's you tune your instrument.
Is that true? I thought they claimed to have improved the pads on Push 2 (even though mine are not unequivocally better than my Push 1 was).

jestermgee
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Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:38 am

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by jestermgee » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:57 am

blof_eld wrote:
kabur glasgow wrote:The pads on the Push 1, Push 2 and Launchpad Pro (probably some others too) are the same. The pads are only capably of measuring pressure – any other information (velocity for example) is derivative.

It's why there should always be editable source code – it let's you tune your instrument.
Is that true? I thought they claimed to have improved the pads on Push 2 (even though mine are not unequivocally better than my Push 1 was).

Yeah it's not quite true at all.

There are differences in hardware between each of the mentioned pad controllers that affect things more than just software.
- Rubber thickness
- Rubber Density
- Rubber Quality
- Size of pad
- Size of sensor
- Gap between sensor and pad
- Number of sensor elements
- Design of sensor element
- Quality of components
- Algorithm of sensor controller
- etc.

Then you have software on top of that to take the info from the hardware and modify it for use, apply offsets and adjustments etc.

So there are many aspects to what makes one controller different from another the same as one keyboard can be different from another, or a guitar, or a piano, or a car or a person. They may all be the same "kind" of thing but not the same in how they are physically put together.

kabur glasgow
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:09 pm

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by kabur glasgow » Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:27 am

The pads on the Push 1, Push 2 and Launchpad Pro (probably some others too) are the same. The pads are only capably of measuring pressure – any other information (velocity for example) is derivative.

It's why there should always be editable source code – it let's you tune your instrument.
Is that true? I thought they claimed to have improved the pads on Push 2 (even though mine are not unequivocally better than my Push 1 was).

Yeah it's not quite true at all.

There are differences in hardware between each of the mentioned pad controllers that affect things more than just software.
- Rubber thickness
- Rubber Density
- Rubber Quality
- Size of pad
- Size of sensor
- Gap between sensor and pad
- Number of sensor elements
- Design of sensor element
- Quality of components
- Algorithm of sensor controller
- etc.
This is true. However, among the three I've tried (Push 1, 2 and Launchpad Pro), there's not much between the design of the rubber and sensors (see a teardown video of all three on youtube). I can actually achieve very similar velocity response, but the issue is with how the note release is handled by the code. Both Launchpad Pro and Push 2 require more pressure to sustain a note, and it makes playing things like piano more awkward since you really have to HOLD the note down to sustain it.

I believe this is what causes the issues with random high velocity notes being spurted out – the minimum pressure to maintain a note is too high, meaning that when you drop below that for an instant, the notes releases, and then the pressure exerted by the finger (still trying to 'hold' the note) is erroneously translated into a note on message.

It's also likely to be the reason for another common problem, which is when you strike a pad the note on message is sent as expected, but the slight bounce of your finger from the pad causes a reduction in pressure which goes below the minimum sustain pressure, causing an erroneous note off message.

Raypath
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:01 am

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by Raypath » Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:15 pm

In summary, Push 2 is great and very playable - with exception of the random velocity spikes, and the sensitivity to the softest notes are not as good as Push 1.
kabur glasgow wrote:
This is true. However, among the three I've tried (Push 1, 2 and Launchpad Pro), there's not much between the design of the rubber and sensors (see a teardown video of all three on youtube). I can actually achieve very similar velocity response, but the issue is with how the note release is handled by the code. Both Launchpad Pro and Push 2 require more pressure to sustain a note, and it makes playing things like piano more awkward since you really have to HOLD the note down to sustain it.

I believe this is what causes the issues with random high velocity notes being spurted out – the minimum pressure to maintain a note is too high, meaning that when you drop below that for an instant, the notes releases, and then the pressure exerted by the finger (still trying to 'hold' the note) is erroneously translated into a note on message.

It's also likely to be the reason for another common problem, which is when you strike a pad the note on message is sent as expected, but the slight bounce of your finger from the pad causes a reduction in pressure which goes below the minimum sustain pressure, causing an erroneous note off message.

Is the velocity thing a hardware issue? This does not happen with Push 1.
soundcloud.com/raypath

kabur glasgow
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:09 pm

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by kabur glasgow » Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:43 pm

Is the velocity thing a hardware issue? This does not happen with Push 1.
No. It's a firmware issue. That's what I mean by the "code". See previous post.

Raypath
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:01 am

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by Raypath » Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:23 pm

Gotcha. If this has been an ongoing issue, anyone have an idea/update on when Ableton will solve this velocity spike issue on Push 2?
kabur glasgow wrote:
I'm using Push 1 (x2) as a keyboard for expressive playing of sampled and modelled acoustic instruments. This means I've gotta be able to play a complex chord and sustain the included notes without the ends of my fingers turning white.

As I've said before on this thread, it's simply a firmware issue. The pads on the Push 1, Push 2 and Launchpad Pro (probably some others too) are the same. The pads are only capably of measuring pressure – any other information (velocity for example) is derivative.

It's why there should always be editable source code – it let's you tune your instrument.
You do this in chromatic setting? I do something similar, but with P1 & P2. Debating on getting another unit for the pad flush-ness.. want another Push 1 because lack of velocity spikes, or would want another Push 2 for future customization.
soundcloud.com/raypath

C_F_3
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:39 pm

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by C_F_3 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:10 pm

tedlogan wrote:viewtopic.php?f=55&t=218344&start=15

In an older thread, a user reported that the devs have confirmed that there is a bug concerning unwanted loud velocities when playing very softly sometimes.
I experience this all the time. It like flubs the note. I'm a fairly consistent finger drummer and sometimes a note will come through at like 15% velocity or not play at all. There's also weird times when a note won't play all the way through despite being in the right mode, one shot I believe. It's frustrating.

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