Ableton Forum

tl:dr version
Its fast to record a few takes and then adjust the loop position and length… but why does the "loop offset" jump to a random position almost every time?

In Push 2, I don't always record at the very start of the clip. Luckily it's easy to use the "Clip" button and re-position where you want the actual loop to start by using the knobs.
Say I start my loop at bar 2 (instead of the start of the clip at bar 1). And record a 2 bar loop. I dial the loop length to two bars... Now all I need to do is reposition the loop (loop position is what it's called on Push's screen) to begin at bar two.
Push does this perfectly, but the problem is that *for some reason* it arbitrarily offsets the start marker (start offset) in the middle of my loop.
For instance, you move the loop from beginning at bar one to begin at bar two. You'd expect the start marker to re-adjust from bar one to bar two in the same fashion. Instead the start marker jumps to bar 3 unexpectedly!
This happens all the time to me and I did this experiment multiple times in a row to make sure it wasn't a fluke. The start marker always arbitrarily jumps to the middle. You can quickly fix it by setting the start offset knob to align to the same bar as your loop position. However I don't know WHY this happens, and because this is the main way I record, it's an extra step I have to do almost every time I record. I wonder if there is a way to have it not do this, and I'm curious as to what the reasoning is for the start point jumping into the middle of the loop.
I see the reasoning behind allowing you to change the start point ("offset"), but by default it should start where the loop begins, unless told otherwise.

video example (watch the start-offset jump to a random position when I change the loop position):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/839 ... n_clip.MOV

Try shortening it to 1 bar, moving it, then setting it as 2 bars.

I think it is trying to preserve your length interval. Because you have it as 2 bars when you are moving it, the start point will 'hop' at two bar intervals.

Otherwise, it'd truly be arbitrary and hop to random spots at random interval durations no matter what the length as you moved the clip. So instead, if you 'take away the beginning' it finds the beginning at the last partial bar until that point becomes the beginning again, and so on.

I still don't understand. If I record 16 bars and then lower my loop length to 4 bars, then change the loop position from 1.1.1 to 2.1.1, the "start offset" jumps from 1.1.1 to 5.1.1. There is more than enough room in this clip for the 4 bars to start at 2.1.1 and have enough room to preserve the length of the loop. I don't get why it jumps to 5.1.1.

It looks like if you shorten the loop length to one bar, then move it around, the issue goes away. The obvious problem is that I often make loops that are longer than one bar, in which case the start-offset goes squirrelly again. The other thing is that I'm a visual person and I like looking at the screen and turning the knob until my loop moves on up to that position. When you make it one bar and then reposition it, it zooms in tight and you no longer see that big picture of the last "take" you just recorded. Its just a preference thing, but thats how I personally crop in on loops, it's a visual thing for me.

I guess the solution is I just have to take note of what bar number the area I want falls on (instead of just visually cropping in on it) then dial that in on the push loop position and then dial that in again on the loop offset (which will be pushed to a random position by this point). It's not a huge deal and I'm sure I'll get used to it, but I would like to understand the reason why the start point jumps to a different section and you have to correct it each time.

have ableton said anything about this?

I have not asked Ableton. Sometimes there is a very good reason for these things and once someone points it out to me, I see it in a new light. This one, though, just seems to add an arbitrary step to my workflow.

I guess I will ask them in a few days if I still don't understand. I've never emailed them regarding a technical software question like this before, do you just email support and they will get back to you? (I've only emailed about crashes, bugs and licenses, etc)

Yes, just send an email to [email protected] and they'll get back to you as soon as they can.

Ableton got back to me with an explanation. Maybe I'm just slow, but it didn't really make sense to me. However, the person who got back to me didn't sound like he understood it either ("I can't tell you why it is programmed this way"). Here is the response

This behaviour is expected and it's not specifically related to Push 2 - you can test it when adjusting the Loop Position on longer MIDI clips.

Here's a test:

- Assume an 8 bar MIDI loop
- Move the Loop Start to bar 2
- Live moves the Start Offset to bar 9. This way, when you launch the clip, your bar 2 Loop Start will not play until the second bar.
- Move the Loop Start to bar 3.
- Live keeps the Start Offset at bar 9. When you launch the clip, two bars will play until looping back to bar 3.

This goes on and on until you move the Loop Position to 9, at which point the start offset jumps to 17, and the cycle continues.

Unfortunately, I can't tell you why it is programmed this way, but I will add it our internal feature wishlist which is hosted by our developers.

It is set up in a manner that would promote the most 'smooth' operation for an already functional clip.

If you have a clip that is already properly warped and looped, you do not want live adjustments to that loop to 'offset' it from the context that it is already playing. So, to avoid weird sounding accidents, it quantized the loop offset based on the context of the loop length when it is going to be adjusted.

If loop length is set to 1 bar, and you push your loop offset forward a little bit, the loop bracket is already on parts of the next bar. If the start doesn't set itself to the beginning of that next bar, the entire loop will fall out of sync in context to whatever the clip was already set up in advance to do.

If the clip is not already set up in advance, then there will be extra work involved. But after that work has been done, the clip should function in a way that results in the least conflicting way when those parameters are changed.

I have a hard time wrapping my head around it without experimenting (not at home at the moment), but I think I understand:

Example: If you had some open hi hats on every second bar, Live thinks its important to keep those on every second bar (especially if you are doing live music). So when you adjust the loop, Live says "you can move that loop, but I'll start it to where that groove remains in the same place."

If I'm understanding it right, that makes sense and I can see how it is made that way. From a producer's standpoint, I really think they should include an option to turn that off. A lot of people like me like Live because they can record a long take and then just loop the best part of the "take." In these cases, Live throws you off when it readjusts your clips automatically.