Ableton Forum

The consensus on most things I read is that you should keep about -6db of headroom when making a track. I know that this means the volume of the master channel should not be going over -6db at any point. However, is this BEFORE or AFTER a limiter is applied to the master channel? I.e., should I be setting the volume on my master channel at -6 and then be using a limiter to pick the volume back up? Or should I keep the volume at 0, make sure the master volume is at or below -6db BEFORE the limiter is applied, and then bring it back up to 0 with the limiter?

clayton.dickmann wrote:The consensus on most things I read is that you should keep about -6db of headroom when making a track. I know that this means the volume of the master channel should not be going over -6db at any point. However, is this BEFORE or AFTER a limiter is applied to the master channel? I.e., should I be setting the volume on my master channel at -6 and then be using a limiter to pick the volume back up? Or should I keep the volume at 0, make sure the master volume is at or below -6db BEFORE the limiter is applied, and then bring it back up to 0 with the limiter?

Generally, this would be after the Limiter if, and only if, you intend to give the master engineer a mixdown with this on. You'd do that if the Limiter is part of your sound and you're mixing into it for color, or/and if you use it to shape your transients.

Regarding -6dB or not, the best is to ask the master engineer / place what they prefer to get.

If you intend to send a version without limiting, then I think that would be fine and maybe even preferred by some, but if you mixed into the Limiter before inactivating it, you probably need another mixdown as individual instrument levels may feel different.

mikb wrote:

clayton.dickmann wrote:The consensus on most things I read is that you should keep about -6db of headroom when making a track. I know that this means the volume of the master channel should not be going over -6db at any point. However, is this BEFORE or AFTER a limiter is applied to the master channel? I.e., should I be setting the volume on my master channel at -6 and then be using a limiter to pick the volume back up? Or should I keep the volume at 0, make sure the master volume is at or below -6db BEFORE the limiter is applied, and then bring it back up to 0 with the limiter?

Generally, this would be after the Limiter if, and only if, you intend to give the master engineer a mixdown with this on. You'd do that if the Limiter is part of your sound and you're mixing into it for color, or/and if you use it to shape your transients.

Regarding -6dB or not, the best is to ask the master engineer / place what they prefer to get.

If you intend to send a version without limiting, then I think that would be fine and maybe even preferred by some, but if you mixed into the Limiter before inactivating it, you probably need another mixdown as individual instrument levels may feel different.

No, that -6 (which is a myth and which does not have any real-life meaning) is without limiting.

What a limiter on the master does it brings up the input gain, raising the level towards the ceiling, pushing down any peaks that'd otherwise go past the ceiling.

A master limiter is rarely "a part of your sound" on the master (whereas it can be used for nice abuse on bass tracks, for example).
A version without limiting is not just fine – it's preferred.

And I'll highly recommend to anyone to learn to do a good mix without master aid.
If your mix falls apart without a limiter, it means your leveling is off.

Fanu wrote:
No, that -6 (which is a myth and which does not have any real-life meaning) is without limiting.

What a limiter on the master does it brings up the input gain, raising the level towards the ceiling, pushing down any peaks that'd otherwise go past the ceiling.

A Limiter does not have to bring up the gain at all. It can just kiss the transients, like I suggested (and what you suggest is similar). It's up to each producer if a limiter is part of the sound or not or how and when one may use a limiter.
The people I send mixes to recommend keeping master buss processing on, if you like what this is doing. They also suggests to not overdo any limiting which I find is sound advice. Just do what is necessary is what I aim to do with a mix.

Fanu wrote:
No, that -6 (which is a myth and which does not have any real-life meaning) is without limiting.

As I suggested the best is to ask the master engineer, master house or whatever. I actually haven't discussed any absolute peak levels with the engineer as it's a non issue for me.

Fanu wrote: And I'll highly recommend to anyone to learn to do a good mix without master aid.
If your mix falls apart without a limiter, it means your leveling is off.

It's a very good idea to not rely on master processing, but I disagree that you cannot do this. It's a choice. The mixdown is what matters, not how you get there. If you use buss compression that may also change your levels. Mixing into compression or limiting or whatever is something people do. You certainly don't have to do it but it's not something to be afraid of.

mikb wrote:A Limiter does not have to bring up the gain at all. It can just kiss the transients, like I suggested (and what you suggest is similar). It's up to each producer if a limiter is part of the sound or not or how and when one may use a limiter.
The people I send mixes to recommend keeping master buss processing on, if you like what this is doing. They also suggests to not overdo any limiting which I find is sound advice. Just do what is necessary is what I aim to do with a mix.

True, it does not have to bring up the input gain at all.
But to get a song loud, that's what you'll do. But sure enough it can act as a safety net that'll make sure no peaks will go over a certain level.

And yes, I'm all up for master processing in general if it sounds good – I never ask my clients to turn it off per se.
(I'm a mixing and mastering engineer; that's my daily job).
It's just a general rule of thumb to leave peak-squashing (i.e., limiting) off, as in 99% of the cases I'll probably do a better job at it than my clients, and it should be the last procedure anyways (which it won't be if the client limits the song, sends it to me, I process it, and limit it again).

mikb wrote:As I suggested the best is to ask the master engineer, master house or whatever. I actually haven't discussed any absolute peak levels with the engineer as it's a non issue for me.

Absolute peak levels barely play any part, as the song will get leveled by the engineer, and the peaks will get squashed.

mikb wrote:It's a very good idea to not rely on master processing, but I disagree that you cannot do this. It's a choice. The mixdown is what matters, not how you get there. If you use buss compression that may also change your levels. Mixing into compression or limiting or whatever is something people do. You certainly don't have to do it but it's not something to be afraid of.

Yeah; I mostly meant a limiter. If one needs a limiter for a balanced mix, he is not good at leveling.

BTW, a little bonus tip: the Color Limiter of Live works way better than its regular Limiter (which mushes transients way too much).
You can get OK master limiting results with Color Limiter of you share the limiting between a few instances, don't go super loud (like EDM loud) and are fine with the fact that it cannot eliminate inter-sample peaks.