Ableton Forum

What a time & Workflow-saver this would be!
So here's the scenario;
There's SO MUCH packed into this wonderful/terrifying DAW
that occasionally, (Ha!) I'll have to consult the "Reference Manual."
Now, especially, since I recently (Finally!) hid enough money from my
wife to upgrade to Live10 Std... But I digress...

I go to the not-so-handy dandy (Cumbersome!) full manual, pick and peck
my way through the index's (which need their own index!) and by the time
I get to the right chapter... I've forgotten what the hell I was looking
UP in the first place!

Now I'm 61, so I attributed a lot of this to early onset Alzheimers until
recently, with the upgrade. LOTS more stuff than Intro V's! (Yay!) And Suite has
GOT to BE "sweet" but, yeah... EVEN MORE STUFF! [Gasp!]

POTENTIAL SOLUTION;
WITH THE CAVEAT THAT NEWBIES SHOULD NOT USE JUST THIS RESOURCE!!!;

MAKE SMALL CHAPTER-BASED PDF REFERENCES AVAILABLE AS INDIVIDUAL PDF's.
To Wit;

Chapter | Desc/Title | Page
===========================================================
17 | Working with Instruments & Fx | 259
18 | Instrument, Drum & Fx Racks | 281
19 | Automation & Editing Envelopes | 301
22 | Live 10 Audio Fx Reference | 333
24 | Live 10 Instrument Reference | 435

OK so I obviously already have THIS LIST, but dammit!
I'm a perfectionist!
I know there are other "POTENTIAL solutions" as well.
btw, EVERY SINGLE CHAPTER IS "BOOKMARKED" IN THE THUMBNAIL
VIEWS... Which makes bookmarking (and zooming to them)
a moot point. (Defeats the purpose)
It's like highlighting almost everything on a page...

Easy for the folks @ Ableton to do as well;
Chop relevant sections (lots of people will have their own fav's)
and simply save that chapter as an individual PDF for "A La Carte"
download.

Am I crazy? Or stupid? I'm still trying to find out why "Reader"
won't save my default page view as "Single Page" and "Fit Width."
I have to do that too many times a session too. Where's the "Coniption
Fit" smailey btw?

G Pops

btw, I'm loving Live10 std!

I know there are other "POTENTIAL solutions" as well.
btw, EVERY SINGLE CHAPTER IS "BOOKMARKED" IN THE THUMBNAIL
VIEWS...

And the table of contents links to the pages, too.

G-Pop wrote: MAKE SMALL CHAPTER-BASED PDF REFERENCES AVAILABLE AS INDIVIDUAL PDF's.

Am I crazy? Or stupid? I'm still trying to find out why "Reader"
won't save my default page view as "Single Page" and "Fit Width."

People have suggested e-book format for quite a few years. This would mean links to everything, font resizing, bookmarks, searches, section printouts and would work in almost all devices, such as your phone, tablet or computer. It would seem Ableton rather would have us guessing than reading because they keep ignoring this great idea.

chrk wrote:And the table of contents links to the pages, too.

YUP! And... How many pages in the table of contents?
Save you the trouble, I have it open; pgs 3 - 19!
16 pages of tables of contents! I'm old! I don't have
that kind of time left on the planet!
Thanks for making my point for me though! jk...

"I know what I want to know when I go...
By the time I get there I often don't care... anymore."
Any-Mo? (I amuse myself!) smh...
Hey, this is starting to sound like a song!

Thanks anyway chrk. Taken in the spirit it was given,
don't mind me, I'm a Smart@$$!

G Pop

mikb wrote:
People have suggested e-book format for quite a few years. This would mean... It would seem Ableton rather would have us guessing than reading because they keep ignoring this great idea.

Yup too mikb, and thats a MUCH better idea than simply chopping up the
PDF into smaller PDF's. I know Corporate; (and I don't like it btw) but...
Doesn't it seem like they're (ALL) getting rid of every KIND of documentation?
PAPER doesn't bother me at all, I'm a "Holdover Hippie" so being kind
to mother earth is a wonderful thing. No, this is about ONE THING;

Can you guess? MONEY! Isn't it always?
I've gotten products that don't have ANY documentation / manuals, so
I am grateful Ableton takes the time and expense rather than create
a user group and steer their (ehem) "customers" to bad YouTube videos
by unskilled and largely ignorant users. Untrained, unskilled, unconcerned.

Ableton does come up to par there because they HAVE to. Nobody has that
kind of time! But here's to hoping they can make a transition inexpensively
that will let them recycle work they've already done. Authoring...

Thanks too mikb! and for this also;
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=156905

G Pop

The User Manual PDF included in the installation does have bookmarks, I can see them in my PDF reader (Sumatra) right now.

Thumbnails are not bookmarks, try finding the actual bookmarks in your PDF reader.

The PDF also already has clickable links to other related topics in the text, just like the online manual.

Ctrl+F opens the search in my PDF reader, try finding out how search works in your PDF reader.

Links in PDFs don't work across separate PDFs files, splitting the manual in several files would make the links, the table of content and the search all less useful.

Also, IMO it saves time just to read the first 10 chapters of the manual straight, like a book, instead of trying to find random stuff as you use Live.

pottering wrote:The User Manual PDF included in the installation does have bookmarks, I can see them in my PDF reader (Sumatra) right now.
Thumbnails are not bookmarks, try finding the actual bookmarks in your PDF reader.

The PDF also already has clickable links to other related topics in the text, just like the online manual.

Ctrl+F opens the search in my PDF reader, try finding out how search works in your PDF reader.

Links in PDFs don't work across separate PDFs files, splitting the manual in several files would make the links, the table of content and the search all less useful.

Also, IMO it saves time just to read the first 10 chapters of the manual straight, like a book, instead of trying to find random stuff as you use Live.

========================================================================
OK! Addressing each non-solution individually;

pottering wrote:The User Manual PDF included in the installation does have bookmarks, I can see them in my PDF reader (Sumatra) right now.

Apparently no one replying is reading or understanding what I originally posted so;
YUP! Every SINGLE chapter has a bookmark, and it's locked, making it impossible for me to bookmark MY
chapters of interest... reference. Bookmarking every chapter is essentially a waste of time.
I could just click on the chapter title. I HAVE used bookmarks, I know what they're for.
They're NOT for every chapter in a book or manual. They'er USER specific.

I should tell you that for about 12 years I designed Corporate Werbsites, most with TONS of data,
one of the most memorable some 1267 PAGES, not ot mention Policy and procedure manuals for
departments,and even more "top level links" (chapters) with sub menues that lead to sub-sub menues...
you get the point I think. I became a MASTER of organizing data, multi linked, CROSS linked, with pop-ups and fly-outs...
every trick in the book and a bunch of new ones I created for unique clients.

In fact the manual should be browser Based; At least then I could use my browsers bookmarks for the local
files. I think the fact that many Audio Fx and instruments are or are not available depending on your
version... (Lite, Intro, Std, Suite) adds to the data organization challenge.

At the risk of repeating myself; The 16 page INDEX needs IT'S OWN index to logically organized groups
which could also include (as yuo say) the first 10 chapters as "Mandatory Basics knowledge" (bad term,
but off the top of my head...) and users could honor that or not...

pottering wrote:Thumbnails are not bookmarks, try finding the actual bookmarks in your PDF reader.The PDF also already has clickable links to other related topics in the text, just like the online manual.

Ctrl+F opens the search in my PDF reader, try finding out how search works in your PDF reader.

Try finding out...???
I'm sorry but this is just condescending. I'm 61, not 16, and the first PROGRAMMING course I ever took
was in 1973... But ok I'll try to understand... Maybe this will help you "get my drift;"
If I came to one of my Web clients with a TOP PAGE (Typically called the "Index.html") and in itself it was
16 pages of links loooooooooooooooong... I'd be fired. I wouldn't even GET to tell them about how many routes there were to DRIVE DEPTH from those 16 pages (which on a web page would simply scroll on forever, and the clients customer would leave their site!!!)they would have a baby. The word "Coniption fit" comes to mind.

SEARCH? I wish I had $10 for every time I searched for something without knowing Abletons nomenclature, (a real non-starter on a commercial site where customers know what THEY call "it" but the company knows better) and if I told a client that, I would have to be wearing Kevlar!
Are you feeling me?
And please dont' tell me about the 11 page "Index" in the end of the maunal... "Nomenclature." Means I have
11 pages to read through hoping I recognize what the term for I don't know how to do what I don't know
what Ableton calls it... ugh... Just try doing a search for "Instruments." You'll START at page 12...
Not even in the index yet! Click a couple more times and you eventually come to pg 9 of the "index". Still not finding the isntrumet LIST though. Next chapter has the word INSTRUMENTS in it! Now click on NEXT in y our search box... UH OH! We zoomed right to pg 557... why? the search was for "instruments" and the forst word of the next chapter is "instrument." No "s"

Look, machines are stupid. Data has to be organized for easy quick access BY HUMAN BEINGS... for human beings. And the more data you have, the more CRUCIAL that the database be designed with a whole lot of
planning with ease of use and simple, logical access routes that come with the least amount of attempts, hops, skips and jumps. If I have to "jump down, turn around and pick a bail of cotton" I'm leaving.
I'd rather search YouTube.

This whole suggestion of mine was a bad idea, and I have to apologize for that.
The TEAM who write and produce the manual for each version have a huge task and handle it admirably.
But the "job at hand here" is not a Tech writers job. It's a Database designers job, and frankly, the whole thing should he in HTML... the only TRUE "cross-platform format" for nearly all devices.

It needs to be logically organized and no more than three "Layers" deep. (3 clicks to your info) TOPS. It's a database. Accessed by humans, who often act (like me?) like monkeys with shotguns.
Sub Groupings need upper level indexes ("width") with the users level of needs and familiarity
of content ALWAYS in mind. They MUST be organized into their OWN groups!
Old saying; "Needle in a haystack." Just organizing the Instruments and Fx by the versions would be
a great help, and if your marketing people want to waggle the upgrade incentives at lower level
users, the web page that SELLS the version comparison on Abletons site is a GREAT example
(or a start anyway) of how that can be done while still allowing a user to zoom riight to the
instrument list IN HIS VERSION! Now I have to read whether each is availble and SCROOOOOOL through
(or go back to the index) to the next instrument, to find out my Std doesn't come with THAT one
either!

Again, I'm sorry. I opened up a can of worms but, well, we used to wear animal skins and live in caves.
Fighting to keep the status quo is the surest way to obscurity. "It is what it is."
I despise that thinking, It's lazy. It means we "can't" make it any better, which is the surest
way to garantee we won't.

"Changes aren't permanent, but CHANGE IS."
-- Rush

G Pop

G-Pop wrote:

pottering wrote:The User Manual PDF included in the installation does have bookmarks, I can see them in my PDF reader (Sumatra) right now.
Thumbnails are not bookmarks, try finding the actual bookmarks in your PDF reader.

The PDF also already has clickable links to other related topics in the text, just like the online manual.

Ctrl+F opens the search in my PDF reader, try finding out how search works in your PDF reader.

Links in PDFs don't work across separate PDFs files, splitting the manual in several files would make the links, the table of content and the search all less useful.

Also, IMO it saves time just to read the first 10 chapters of the manual straight, like a book, instead of trying to find random stuff as you use Live.

========================================================================
OK! Addressing each non-solution individually;

pottering wrote:The User Manual PDF included in the installation does have bookmarks, I can see them in my PDF reader (Sumatra) right now.

Apparently no one replying is reading or understanding what I originally posted so;
YUP! Every SINGLE chapter has a bookmark, and it's locked, making it impossible for me to bookmark MY
chapters of interest... reference. Bookmarking every chapter is essentially a waste of time.
I could just click on the chapter title. I HAVE used bookmarks, I know what they're for.
They're NOT for every chapter in a book or manual. They'er USER specific.

I should tell you that for about 12 years I designed Corporate Werbsites, most with TONS of data,
one of the most memorable some 1267 PAGES, not ot mention Policy and procedure manuals for
departments,and even more "top level links" (chapters) with sub menues that lead to sub-sub menues...
you get the point I think. I became a MASTER of organizing data, multi linked, CROSS linked, with pop-ups and fly-outs...
every trick in the book and a bunch of new ones I created for unique clients.

In fact the manual should be browser Based; At least then I could use my browsers bookmarks for the local
files. I think the fact that many Audio Fx and instruments are or are not available depending on your
version... (Lite, Intro, Std, Suite) adds to the data organization challenge.

At the risk of repeating myself; The 16 page INDEX needs IT'S OWN index to logically organized groups
which could also include (as yuo say) the first 10 chapters as "Mandatory Basics knowledge" (bad term,
but off the top of my head...) and users could honor that or not...

pottering wrote:Thumbnails are not bookmarks, try finding the actual bookmarks in your PDF reader.The PDF also already has clickable links to other related topics in the text, just like the online manual.

Ctrl+F opens the search in my PDF reader, try finding out how search works in your PDF reader.

Try finding out...???
I'm sorry but this is just condescending. I'm 61, not 16, and the first PROGRAMMING course I ever took
was in 1973... But ok I'll try to understand... Maybe this will help you "get my drift;"
If I came to one of my Web clients with a TOP PAGE (Typically called the "Index.html") and in itself it was
16 pages of links loooooooooooooooong... I'd be fired. I wouldn't even GET to tell them about how many routes there were to DRIVE DEPTH from those 16 pages (which on a web page would simply scroll on forever, and the clients customer would leave their site!!!)they would have a baby. The word "Coniption fit" comes to mind.

SEARCH? I wish I had $10 for every time I searched for something without knowing Abletons nomenclature, (a real non-starter on a commercial site where customers know what THEY call "it" but the company knows better) and if I told a client that, I would have to be wearing Kevlar!
Are you feeling me?
And please dont' tell me about the 11 page "Index" in the end of the maunal... "Nomenclature." Means I have
11 pages to read through hoping I recognize what the term for I don't know how to do what I don't know
what Ableton calls it... ugh... Just try doing a search for "Instruments." You'll START at page 12...
Not even in the index yet! Click a couple more times and you eventually come to pg 9 of the "index". Still not finding the isntrumet LIST though. Next chapter has the word INSTRUMENTS in it! Now click on NEXT in y our search box... UH OH! We zoomed right to pg 557... why? the search was for "instruments" and the forst word of the next chapter is "instrument." No "s"

Look, machines are stupid. Data has to be organized for easy quick access BY HUMAN BEINGS... for human beings. And the more data you have, the more CRUCIAL that the database be designed with a whole lot of
planning with ease of use and simple, logical access routes that come with the least amount of attempts, hops, skips and jumps. If I have to "jump down, turn around and pick a bail of cotton" I'm leaving.
I'd rather search YouTube.

This whole suggestion of mine was a bad idea, and I have to apologize for that.
The TEAM who write and produce the manual for each version have a huge task and handle it admirably.
But the "job at hand here" is not a Tech writers job. It's a Database designers job, and frankly, the whole thing should he in HTML... the only TRUE "cross-platform format" for nearly all devices.

It needs to be logically organized and no more than three "Layers" deep. (3 clicks to your info) TOPS. It's a database. Accessed by humans, who often act (like me?) like monkeys with shotguns.
Sub Groupings need upper level indexes ("width") with the users level of needs and familiarity
of content ALWAYS in mind. They MUST be organized into their OWN groups!
Old saying; "Needle in a haystack." Just organizing the Instruments and Fx by the versions would be
a great help, and if your marketing people want to waggle the upgrade incentives at lower level
users, the web page that SELLS the version comparison on Abletons site is a GREAT example
(or a start anyway) of how that can be done while still allowing a user to zoom riight to the
instrument list IN HIS VERSION! Now I have to read whether each is availble and SCROOOOOOL through
(or go back to the index) to the next instrument, to find out my Std doesn't come with THAT one
either!

Again, I'm sorry. I opened up a can of worms but, well, we used to wear animal skins and live in caves.
Fighting to keep the status quo is the surest way to obscurity. "It is what it is."
I despise that thinking, It's lazy. It means we "can't" make it any better, which is the surest
way to garantee we won't.

"Changes aren't permanent, but CHANGE IS."
-- Rush

G Pop

SORRY FOR TRYING TO HELP YOU

I WONT DO IT A SECOND TIME

pottering wrote: SORRY FOR TRYING TO HELP YOU
I WONT DO IT A SECOND TIME

If you're going to condescend to me and, frankly, insult my intelligence,
I'd really rather you didn't. Especially if "you can dish it out, but
you can't take it."

I'm sorry, but I'm not that sorry.

G Pop

I don't know what the current printer drives are like in Windows, but in Mac OS when printing anything, "Save As PDF" is an option. This creates a PDF file (doh) instead of firing up your printer. Using this along with specifying what pages to print lets you chop the pages of your choice of any PDF into a new file. I've done this for important chapters of manuals for years.

I was bummed when the hard copy manual was dropped from Live 10. One came with 7 and 8, I paid extra to get one for 9 but that was the end of the line. I know some people don't care about printed manuals, but they are far easier to bookmark than PDFs viewed on a screen.

If you really want to experience manual hell, buy Logic Pro X. The documentation is so terrible I ended up spending $60 on two books. I spent a few days with a highlighter and learned far more from that process than I had in weeks of scrolling through Logic's e-book manual..

I think Ableton allows for users to get the manual printed and bound at a print house. It's not terribly expensive.

Thanks mikb & Doghouse!
Why the hell didn't I think of this???
(Pre Alzheimers!)

doghouse wrote:I don't know what the current printer drives are like in Windows, but in Mac OS when printing anything, "Save As PDF" is an option. This creates a PDF file (doh) instead of firing up your printer. Using this along with specifying what pages to print lets you chop the pages of your choice of any PDF into a new file. I've done this for important chapters of manuals for years.

I was bummed when the hard copy manual was dropped from Live 10. One came with 7 and 8, I paid extra to get one for 9 but that was the end of the line. I know some people don't care about printed manuals, but they are far easier to bookmark than PDFs viewed on a screen.

If you really want to experience manual hell, buy Logic Pro X. The documentation is so terrible I ended up spending $60 on two books. I spent a few days with a highlighter and learned far more from that process than I had in weeks of scrolling through Logic's e-book manual..

G-Pop wrote:

pottering wrote: SORRY FOR TRYING TO HELP YOU
I WONT DO IT A SECOND TIME

If you're going to condescend to me and, frankly, insult my intelligence,
I'd really rather you didn't. Especially if "you can dish it out, but
you can't take it."

I'm sorry, but I'm not that sorry.

G Pop

Thanks for making your position clear.

But don't try to paint my honest attempt at trying to help a newbie into a "insult" (yes, I noticed you thought it was an insult, but that's your goddamn problem).

I didn't "dish" anything, but I can take it just fine.

"You can dish it out, but you can't take it." is hilariously hypocritical coming from someone that considers an "insult" comments like my first one in this thread.

Keep it friendly guys, no need to get all worked up please.

try some alternative PDF readers.

in Adobe Acrobat the chapters and sections appear as bookmarks, but in Preview (the built-in PDF reader on MacOS) the table of contents of the Live manual works well and is independent of the bookmarks.

most of the time i use a dynamic search rather than poring through the contents or index anyway.