Ableton Live clock SYNC and delay compensation - 2021

[maky355]

Guys please help me figure this one out. This thread is NOT about Live VST effects Plugin Delay Compensation. It is about PDC and Live SYNC clock. For a time when the user is sending a clock to an external groovebox, or synths which has it's own sequencers and patterns. Example TR8S, MPC, and so on (many synths and grooveboxes has their own patterns/sequencers etc.).

I'll try to be straightforward. Please follow me. But before I continue with it, allow me some explanation. I never reported this here because all these years I was frustrated thinking that I am doing or expecting something wrong. Turns out this is not the case.

Scenario 1.

I use Ableton to send midi out for everything. Like sending midi out from my Ableton clips into my hardware synths, grooveboxes etx. I use the External Instrument plugin. I use UAD and other plugins  which introduce latency. In Scenario 1 everything is perfectly synced. Bear in mind that in this scenario I am not using the TR8S (or MPC or whatever) internal sequencer for sequencing. All of my notes are coming from Live itself. This works fine even if I add an absurd amount of plugins which introduce latency. Everything is in tight sync. In this case I am not using Ableton SYNC clock to my external devices since it's not needed. All of my MIDI data comes out from clips into everything else. But this is not the point.

Scenario 2.
Let's pretend that for sequencing I want to use a straightforward XOXO sequencer found on my TR8S, or my MPC or that I simply want my external Synth and it's own sequencer clocked to Ableton SYNC.

So in order to do that I (obviously) need to send a SYNC clock which when I press Play in Live - my TR8S should start to play and follow my Live session. Ok. I set up Live in that way. I enable SYNC in Live settings to be sent to OUT and into my TR8S. Press play. It works. Ableton is sending a clock to my TR8S and it seems everything is in sync. 7
My clip midi data which is sequencing my Operator and external TR8S groovebox with it's own sequencer midi data seems to be in sync. That's the point.

But here goes the problem.
As soon as I start adding plugins which induce latency to my software instruments, my TR8S clock starts lagging exactly by the amount caused by a plugin which induces latency.

This tells me that Ableton Live SYNC clock does NOT take plugin latency into the PDC effect/process itself - which effectively is resulting all of my external gear that is using their own sequencer -  to be completely out of sync.

So long story short I was under the belief that I am doing something wrong and that it's impossible that in 2021 Ableton didn't figure this one out. Right?

Well no...

https://gumroad.com/l/qjpEU

This device is created solely for that purpose. To fix the Live SYNC clock in situation when latency plugins are being used and to make it work with Scenario 2. Where you want to use your own external gear which runs an internal sequencer and makes it tight with Ableton.

So this plugin exist solely and precisely because someone at Ableton decided to not include MIDI sync clock as a apart of the PDC calculation process.

Ok so I purchased a plugin but there's a big problem.

1. Plugin does not work on Windows computers (tested and troubleshooted the hell out of it). On Mac it works fine. On Windows it does not. No it's not the imp.midi package, it's not an occupied midi port either (I have a multiclient midi device which allows me to use a single port for more midi devices). To put it simply, it does not work on Windows.

2. That plugin does not save MIDI port configuration so every time you reopen Live you need to go thru assigning all ports inside of it - from the start.

So to put it simply - that plugin is partly finished and I don't intend to harass a nice developer to fix an issue which shouldn't be there in the first place.

I am finding it ridiculous seeing that this problem was reported since Live 9 (I see other forum posts with the same subject), Ableton did NOTHING to solve it. So we need to rely on 3rd party Max for Live devices which exist solely for this reason but they are partly working.
Please help me understand this.

Am I going mad, am I that ridiculous to expect that in 2021 Live application which is used to produce music in music studios and on live sets - clock to my external interfaces without me losing my mind about it?

I mean shouldn't this be inside Live to begin with? What were they thinking?

What is wrong with this? How are other people coping with this? Is there any other Max plugin which can be tried?

[[jur]]

Yep, that sucks.

Imo the best way to workaround this is to use Live's native devices rather than latency-inducing 3rd party plugins.
Do you really need good looking plugins for a live setup? There's really not much plugins out there that can't be replaced by a Live device, even though big money marketing is very good at making us think so.

Other thing you should consider is to report this to support@ableton.com. Of course Ableton is aware of this issue, but the more complains we get about this, the more priority it gets

[maky355]

Yep, that sucks.

Imo the best way to workaround this is to use Live's native devices rather than latency-inducing 3rd party plugins.
Do you really need good looking plugins for a live setup? There's really not much plugins out there that can't be replaced by a Live device, even though big money marketing is very good at making us think so.

Other thing you should consider is to report this to support@ableton.com. Of course Ableton is aware of this issue, but the more complains we get about this, the more priority it gets

Please correct me if I am wrong (perhaps I messed up something), but you being an admin here, which IMHO is a respectable position and by that I understand you should definitely know better I genuinely don't know are you trolling me or are you making a fun out of me and everyone else with the issue.

1. You don't know anything about me. To insinuate that I use 3rd party plugins because they are looking better then Ableton live devices is disgusting. I am not going into that how I must be deceived by 3rd party companies and their marketing. Thanks for that, you act like I can not process what's being thrown at me. This is really upsetting. I am probably older then you which is why I am really upset by your comment.

2. To tell me that Ableton Native devices can cover all ground is preposterous let alone insane. By your logic we shouldn't use any other plugin because everything is in Live. Really? Please forgive me for using 3rd party plugins and industry leading plugins used among countless professionals in various music genres - for a more then decade. We all must be wrong, because person said I should simply not use it. You act as if using 3rd party plugins is something uncommon which is far from being a true. Make a poll here and you'll see that probably 98.999999% of people here uses 3rd party VST plugins.

3. Even Ableton devices induce latency. Limiter, The Glue etc. When used on buses and across tracks latency accumulate and it's noticeable. So how about that mister? Countless Max for Live plugins also induce latency. What? I should use 12 plugins shipped with Live and forget about everything else..right...sounds legit and logical.

Jesus Christ if people with that attitude work at Ableton no wonder this still isn't dealt with - properly. I am making screenshot out of this thread because I am in fear you being and admin will censor me even though I said nothing wrong or against the rules.

Allow me to restructure my question. It's a very basic question. Since basically you admitted this is a problem and "it sucks". And from the archive I can see that it was reported years before my thread:

Do you think that it's ok that Ableton Live can NOT work properly in SYNC with the hardware musical instruments in a studio or live setup - even with it's own plugins being used?

Or in best case it can work but with quite some limitations...

My personal opinion is that for Ableton Live acting and aiming as one of the leading musicians application on a worldwide scale - not being able to SYNC with the musical instruments properly - even after years of reports - is really a bad issue.

The fact that Max for Live 3rd party developers generated half baked solution tells me it's possible.

It is shocking that Ableton decided to support external hardware (clearly there are tools for that, like External Instrument and effect plugin + advance options in midi settings) yet by some weird decision, someone over at Ableton decided that sending SYNC clock which is aligned with everything else is not important. What the??????

It's almost as if they are showing middle finger to the people with musical instruments. What the hell is happening with the world?

Priority you say? What, am I supposed to waste time collecting people with the hardware and then we should run a online petition? I am not even commenting time wasted, troubleshooting this and forcing myself that it must be me doing something wrong because clearly it seemed impossible to me that someone at Ableton missed the point with this.

How it could be that someone at Ableton completely forgot or didn't test hardware instruments with it's won clock. It must be me...right..wow..

[Mark Williams]

@maky355

Try turning down your attitude a smidge, its rather unbecoming. Secondly all hardware handles and processes Clock in its own way, adding their own latency, which is different for every piece of hardware, Ableton cannot know that, therefore cannot allow for that.

[jbone1313]

Didn’t read the whole thing but I sorted this a while back. Here’s the way.

https://www.elektronauts.com/t/solution ... eton/69879

[[jur]]

Macky
My answer wasn't trying to upset you at all! English isn't my native language so maybe my intentions weren't clear?
I really gave you an honest advise.

I think it's too easy to forget that Live can serve multiple purposes: if you compare different musicians' composition/production sets VS their live (in the sense of concert) counterparts you'll see that it's almost systematically made differently. You play the same song, but the context and limitations are very different, so you adapt. It doesn't sound crazy at all imo.

I'm not saying you shoudn't use your 3rd party plugins at all, I'm just saying that, since they're introducing latency, you should avoid them when you're in a "live" setup/context. They simply need time to do their thing, and this delay isn't suited for performance.
You can use them for production/composition/mixing... where latency isn't an issue.

Even if you feel like your feet feel better in boots when go to work, you wouldn't use boots if you had to do a running competition, right?

[randi]

Secondly all hardware handles and processes Clock in its own way, adding their own latency, which is different for every piece of hardware, Ableton cannot know that, therefore cannot allow for that.

This is not about how other hardware handles midi clock, it is about how Live sends it, which is not PDC compensated.

[pottering]

There is a MIDI Clock Sync Delay setting for each MIDI Port in Preferences>MIDI.

For the MIDI notes, each track has a Track Delay setting.

External Instruments can help, depending if you are routing back into Live or not.

Delaying MIDI clock by plugin latency will obviously cause problems if the hardware receiving MIDI clock in sending audio back into Live (for recording or adding FX).

[maky355]

@maky355

Try turning down your attitude a smidge, its rather unbecoming. Secondly all hardware handles and processes Clock in its own way, adding their own latency, which is different for every piece of hardware, Ableton cannot know that, therefore cannot allow for that.

You either don't know what you are talking about or you are missing the point (clock thing).

But thanks for the advice about the attitude. Sorry I was hyperventilating after I realized that I lost months in troubleshooting this and blaming myself.

[maky355]

Secondly all hardware handles and processes Clock in its own way, adding their own latency, which is different for every piece of hardware, Ableton cannot know that, therefore cannot allow for that.

This is not how other hardware handles midi clock, it is about how Live sends it, which is not PDC compensated.

This! I expect this will happen all over again, people which are completely missing the point will join here and this post will end nowhere just like the posts from several years ago.

Mind you I am not discrediting anyone or asking people to stay way, it's just that if people don't understand what this is about they can help us by supporting people with the issue or by asking for further details (if they wanna learn). Throwing unrelated things to this thread like the one about different hardware processing clock differently is irrelevant.

We are talking about Live internal simple start stop SYNC clock (midi message) which is not PDC compensated when sent out to external hardware.

We are not talking about plugins and their PDC, nor we are talking about different hardware and their own clocks. It really is simple. All hardware respond to to a external SYNC clock same. It's start or stop (simplified explanation). The issue here is that Live SYNC message isn't taken into account when PDC is in game (scenario 2). Causing that start message is sent to a hardware a bit too late. End of story.

[maky355]

Macky
My answer wasn't trying to upset you at all! English isn't my native language so maybe my intentions weren't clear?
I really gave you an honest advise.

I think it's too easy to forget that Live can serve multiple purposes: if you compare different musicians' composition/production sets VS their live (in the sense of concert) counterparts you'll see that it's almost systematically made differently. You play the same song, but the context and limitations are very different, so you adapt. It doesn't sound crazy at all imo.

I'm not saying you shoudn't use your 3rd party plugins at all, I'm just saying that, since they're introducing latency, you should avoid them when you're in a "live" setup/context. They simply need time to do their thing, and this delay isn't suited for performance.
You can use them for production/composition/mixing... where latency isn't an issue.

Even if you feel like your feet feel better in boots when go to work, you wouldn't use boots if you had to do a running competition, right?

Ok jur. You are bending your initial response a bit. But I'll take you didn't mean harm. I apologize for being harsh. You have to consider that I was acting after

a: I realized how much time I was troubleshooting this and blaming myself. Very frustrating.
b: When someone as site admin respond to me I expected a bit more matured response or empathy.

But let's agree that we agreed on this.

Moreover your advice isn't helping because Live isn't used just in "live" session it's used in studios with gear. Being in this game for a long time it is pretty much very obvious thing for me to realize that in "live" setup one would want to minimize overall roundtrip latency as much as possible. This thread is not about that.

So please let's focus on initial problem, not how Ableton Live could be used, which plugin should or not should be used.

Thanks.

[maky355]

There is a MIDI Clock Sync Delay setting for each MIDI Port in Preferences>MIDI.

For the MIDI notes, each track has a Track Delay setting.

External Instruments can help, depending if you are routing back into Live or not.

Delaying MIDI clock by plugin latency will obviously cause problems if the hardware receiving MIDI clock in sending audio back into Live (for recording or adding FX).

This is also irrelevant. But thanks for help. Read what I wrote in initial post. Read what other said.

Noone is delaying midi clock. We are not doing that. What we are adding are plugins with latency. Even Ableton plugins induce latency. Problem is that Live clock isn't taken into account (while everything else is) when PDC processing is active. That's all to it.

Look I know all this stuff inside out. I know there's MIDI Clock Sync Delay settings in MIDI preferences. This is not about it.

Please you don't expect me that each time I add plugin which induces latency to calculate, recalculate and then toy and tweak MIDI preferences on a port to adapt to the increased or decreased latency when a plugin is removed. That would be insane, moreover there's a limit to this setting. Same can be said to the mixer time shifting settings.

I am also aware that Live External Hardware (or FX) plugin itself has a latency option - this is not about that.
I am also aware that there's latency option in the Live mixer itself - this thread is not about that either.

If my English isn't that good, I linked a 3rd party product where developer understood what's the problem and he tried to produce solution for the issue (but it isn't working half the time).

Plus I tried to explain it to the other poster above.

Regards

[maky355]

Elektronaut solution and Reduced Latency isn't applicable because I also use Push 2. Selecting any track with push will record enable it (obviously) it and then whole sync falls apart even if Reduced Latency is enabled. At the top this adds another layer of things a user need to monitor or watch out in order for a mix to not fall apart - this is not acceptable solution.

Second elektronaut solution doesn't work either because it suggest that one is not using latency inducing plugins. Which is what Jur suggested initially.

It is dead simple. Midi clock which is sent to external hardware from Live - need to be compensated just as everything else in the mix. That person with Max For Live 3rd party commercial solution almost nailed it but it's not working entirely (Windows problems. usability problems) and clock isn't tight.

I am not imagining this up, I am not using Live wrongly. If you think I am wrong, then believe site admin or other people. They confirmed my findings.

There are other people with the same issue and there are Max developers trying to solve this issue. Help us out by acknowledging this.

[Mark Williams]

As you obviously no better, crack on.

No problem with this my end.

[randi]

Btw my guess is that devices like erm multi clock are that popular with Live users is because of that. I always thought that the hassle of then needing to merge midi notes and clock, in order to not lose the external instruments advantages, was not worth it. Might need to rethink that, the configuration on the iconnectivity devices should doable.
Did you try a device like that already?