Ableton Forum

The following passage appears in the Live manual, in the fact sheet:

“Live uses constant power panning with sinusoidal gain curves. Output is 0 dB at the center position and signals panned fully left or right will be increased by +3 dB. In order to minimize this volume change, it may be helpful to narrow the overall stereo width before doing extreme panning. This can be done via the Width control in the Utility device.”

The above properties describe a stereo pan balance rather than a pan law. Mono signals panned fully L/R would be boosted by 3dB. Stereo signals fully panned, however, would have an evenly-perceived loud middle signal (that signal common to L+R). This should at least be mentioned, I’d think.

Trevbo wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:00 pm

they are referring to the Utility device , you use the stereo width control in conjunction with hard panning as a sort of solution to the increase in decibels levels.

its not nonsensical at all. its worded perfectly.

Please reread with my edit. You’re incorrect, however: even mono tracks will be boosted 3dB in fully panned positions.

Let’s keep it civil please.

Trevbo wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 25, 2022 12:18 am

LosAngeles wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:22 pm

Trevbo wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:00 pm

they are referring to the Utility device , you use the stereo width control in conjunction with hard panning as a sort of solution to the increase in decibels levels.

its not nonsensical at all. its worded perfectly.

Please reread with my edit. You’re incorrect, however: even mono tracks will be boosted 3dB in fully panned positions.

you are wrong in saying the manual is nonsensical. It just gives an option to use a utility device to compensate for increase decibel levels, that's all. its very clear.

you reread it!

In that case, can you please explain the mechanism by which a stereo image collapsed to mono would in any way affect a 3dB powers level increase? I am familiar with all of the mathematics required, so feel free to be as technical as desired.

There is no "misnomer" in Ableton's manual, and Live's pan law is not an outlier, it is the same as other DAWs and many hardware.

http://www.moz.ac.at/sem/lehre/lib/bib/ ... e_460.html

Thus the intensity drops to 0.707 in the middle, from a starting point of 1 at the side. This is a difference of 3 dB. To the ear, whose sensitivity is more correlated to intensity than to amplitude, the sound appears to be fainter in the center, as if it has moved away from the listener.
Constant Power Panning
A constant power pan uses sinusoidal curves to control the amplitude emanating from the two loudspeakers (Reveillon 1994). This creates the impression of a pan with a more stable loudness:

The graphic in the above link is very illustrative.

https://www.harmonycentral.com/articles ... laws-r501/

Adobe Audition has two panning options. L/R Cut Logarithmic is the default, and pans to the left by reducing the right channel volume, and conversely, pans to the right by reducing the left channel volume. As the panning gets closer to hard left or right, the channel being panned to doesn’t increase past what its volume would be when centered. The Equal Power Sinusoidal option maintains constant power by amplifying hard pans to left or right by +3dB, which is conceptually similar to dropping the two channels by -3dB when the signal is centered.

SONAR lets you choose from six different pan laws.
...
0dB center, sin/cos taper, constant power. The signal level stays at 0dB when centered, and increases by +3dB when panned left or right. Although this is the default, I don’t recommend it because of the possibility of clipping if you pan a full-level signal off of center.

Personally, I go for the tried-and-true “-3dB down in the center” option. I designed analog mixers to have that response, and so I’m more than happy to continue the tradition within the various sequencer hosts. Also, this is one option that just about every host provides, whereas some of the more esoteric ones may not be supported by other hosts.

LosAngeles wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:11 am

Trevbo wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 25, 2022 12:18 am

LosAngeles wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:22 pm

Please reread with my edit. You’re incorrect, however: even mono tracks will be boosted 3dB in fully panned positions.

you are wrong in saying the manual is nonsensical. It just gives an option to use a utility device to compensate for increase decibel levels, that's all. its very clear.

you reread it!

In that case, can you please explain the mechanism by which a stereo image collapsed to mono would in any way affect a 3dB powers level increase? I am familiar with all of the mathematics required, so feel free to be as technical as desired.

i suspect that what the manual is trying to say — albeit a little clumsily — is that you can minimise the way that the panned volume change might mess with the nature of a stereo signal by making the signal more mono before hard panning...

fishmonkey wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:52 am

LosAngeles wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:11 am

Trevbo wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 25, 2022 12:18 am

you are wrong in saying the manual is nonsensical. It just gives an option to use a utility device to compensate for increase decibel levels, that's all. its very clear.

you reread it!

In that case, can you please explain the mechanism by which a stereo image collapsed to mono would in any way affect a 3dB powers level increase? I am familiar with all of the mathematics required, so feel free to be as technical as desired.

i suspect that what the manual is trying to say — albeit a little clumsily — is that you can minimise the way that the panned volume change might mess with the nature of a stereo signal by making the signal more mono before hard panning...

Yes, precisely. Thank you for confirming this. As written, it sounds as if they’re claiming mono sounds don’t conform to the +3dB pan law somehow- which. Clearly isn’t true. More clear writing is a simple fix to this (also, it should be noted that tracks at center pan will play 3dB louder than DAWs employing the more traditional constant power pan law which attenuates C by 3dB).

There is nothing wrong or clumsy in that part of the manual.

"Minimize" and "it may be helpful" are clear English, the manual's context is clear too (it obviously depend on the audio).

It is also clear (if you don't presume things) that with the extremely common "-3db at center" pan rule, any centering (like with Utility's Width) will help countering up to +3db increase in gain.

Even without any math or DSP theory, just testing in Live, other DAWs and hardware will show that panning works just like Live's manual describes in most of them.

OP's posted about this in multiple places, and no one was actually confused by Live's manual, people were confused by OP's statements.

pottering wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:40 pm

OP's posted about this in multiple places, and no one was actually confused by Live's manual, people were confused by OP's statements.

I was confused by it, so you’re statement is incorrect that ‘no one’ was confused by it. Also, yes: I requested help in several forums for varied responses- I’m not a bit ashamed by that.

Trevbo wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:25 pm

well said. what a waist of time the OP was.

Now it all makes sense! It was clear to you likely for the same reason you can’t properly distinguish “waist” and “waste.”