Ghost Latency

[Idemax]

Hey folks,

I'm facing a ghost latency here. Anyone knows how to fix that?

Ableton 10.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf8WB2slVoM

Thanks

[fishmonkey]

disabling a plugin doesn't remove its latency from the Live set. Live wouldn't be able to maintain seamless playback if it recalculated track latencies whenever a plugin is enabled/disabled — that would cause big playback glitches...

[yur2die4]

First thing to point out, it doesn’t matter if the plugins are on or off. If they are in a channel, they will induce the amount of latency required for that plug-in. So the first thing I’d do is try a set where there are no plugins with the same track and see if there is a difference.

Second, the buffer size for your audio seems a little on the high side, but I don’t imagine it’d have as much of an effect as what you’re experiencing.

So I’d double check plugins on the master, the source channel, and send/return channels first. Depending on if your Reduce Latency is on, you might also need to remove plugins from all other channels. And see if there is a difference. Again, it doesn’t matter if the plugins are off. By being on the channel, they change the required buffer amount. The only thing being off and on will affect is how much cpu is actually being used when they are doing processing.

[jlgrimes]

Hey folks,

I'm facing a ghost latency here. Anyone knows how to fix that?

Ableton 10.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf8WB2slVoM

Thanks

A trick I do to eliminate latency.

I use the setting (Reduce latency when monitoring).

You still need to be conscious of your plugin chains though. Any latency hungry plugin like Ozone, I will cut the plugin and paste to an empty track. That way I can copy the plugin back to track when finished monitoring.

[Idemax]

IMO this should not be a feature but considered as bug.

I believe when you turn off something it should not be considered at all.

In my video you can see the channel who is adding this ghost latency has everything turned off and disabled. Why should it be adding latency?

Doesn't make any sense to me. I believe is time to move from Ableton if they don't consider this as a bug.

Maybe I'm missing some understanding but AFAIK turn off means disabled and should not be considered nor add this ghost latency.

[scheffkoch]

...but what should happen when you turn on the plugin while transport is running?...

[Idemax]

...but what should happen when you turn on the plugin while transport is running?...

Is not about turning on. Is about don't add latency when is turned off.

[Calagan]

Ok let’s put it another way : do you know any other daw with variable latency depending on the on/off state of a plugin ?
I don’t think it exists, and there is good reasons for that...

[Idemax]

Ok let’s put it another way : do you know any other daw with variable latency depending on the on/off state of a plugin ?
I don’t think it exists, and there is good reasons for that...

Yes, pro tools and cubase. Tested both in the studio I work. Unfortunately I don't have money to afford them

[fishmonkey]

IMO this should not be a feature but considered as bug.

I believe when you turn off something it should not be considered at all.

In my video you can see the channel who is adding this ghost latency has everything turned off and disabled. Why should it be adding latency?

Doesn't make any sense to me. I believe is time to move from Ableton if they don't consider this as a bug.

Maybe I'm missing some understanding but AFAIK turn off means disabled and should not be considered nor add this ghost latency.

Ableton Live prioritises functioning for "live" non-linear performance. more traditional linear DAW features have been added later. because of this, it makes complete sense that audio playback does not glitch when plugins are enabled or bypassed — there is no way to change the latency during active playback without causing an audible glitch — possibly a really bad/loud one.

what you are asking for (and others have asked for it too) — is the option to have another mode where a plugin in Live can be bypassed or completely disabled. you are right — ProTools can bypass a plugin like Live does, or completely deactivate a plugin (you have two options). ProTools was not built for seamless live performance though. i would guess that Ableton haven't added this feature because either it is difficult to do with their audio engine, or because they want to avoid people accidentally performing with the feature turned on, causing big problems with live performances.

[Idemax]

IMO this should not be a feature but considered as bug.

I believe when you turn off something it should not be considered at all.

In my video you can see the channel who is adding this ghost latency has everything turned off and disabled. Why should it be adding latency?

Doesn't make any sense to me. I believe is time to move from Ableton if they don't consider this as a bug.

Maybe I'm missing some understanding but AFAIK turn off means disabled and should not be considered nor add this ghost latency.

Ableton Live prioritises functioning for "live" non-linear performance. more traditional linear DAW features have been added later. because of this, it makes complete sense that audio playback does not glitch when plugins are enabled or bypassed — there is no way to change the latency during active playback without causing an audible glitch — possibly a really bad/loud one.

what you are asking for (and others have asked for it too) — is the option to have another mode where a plugin in Live can be bypassed or completely disabled. you are right — ProTools can bypass a plugin like Live does, or completely deactivate a plugin (you have two options). ProTools was not built for seamless live performance though. i would guess that Ableton haven't added this feature because either it is difficult to do with their audio engine, or because they want to avoid people accidentally performing with the feature turned on, causing big problems with live performances.

Why would be so hard to implement such a bypass? Ifaik Ableton is build on python with their on engine which is one of the most flexible OOP and reliable languages to do such a DAW. I have 17 years XP as software engineer and do such a bypass is very simple IMO because to process an audio you have to send a sample (from sample rate) to the VST and get the result at the end. I follow your thoughts about Ableton focus on Live, but can't see how hard you'd be implement a full bypass.

The second part of your reply is too vague, would you mind to elaborate please? What kind of big problems really turn off plugins would cause to the user? Afaiu you're assuming a user mistake. For me is the same of don't disable auto fades and blame the DAW for it.

[fishmonkey]

Why would be so hard to implement such a bypass? Ifaik Ableton is build on python with their on engine which is one of the most flexible OOP and reliable languages to do such a DAW. I have 17 years XP as software engineer and do such a bypass is very simple IMO because to process an audio you have to send a sample (from sample rate) to the VST and get the result at the end. I follow your thoughts about Ableton focus on Live, but can't see how hard you'd be implement a full bypass.

The second part of your reply is too vague, would you mind to elaborate please? What kind of big problems really turn off plugins would cause to the user? Afaiu you're assuming a user mistake. For me is the same of don't disable auto fades and blame the DAW for it.

i doubt very much that the audio engine of Live is programmed in Python.

as for the second part of my reply, there are options that can cause unwanted things to happen, and then there are options that can cause VERY undesirable things to happen. in my opinion the kinds of audible glitches that are caused by large changes in latency settings are VERY undesirable in a live performance environment. of course you could add the feature and say that it is "user error" when something goes wrong, however part of user interface design is also weighing up the risks of possible user errors. the feature you are asking for would make it possible to easily make a mistake with very undesirable consequences when switching between production and live use.

i don't know how much live sound experience you have, however glitches are really unpleasant when they happen...

[Idemax]

Why would be so hard to implement such a bypass? Ifaik Ableton is build on python with their on engine which is one of the most flexible OOP and reliable languages to do such a DAW. I have 17 years XP as software engineer and do such a bypass is very simple IMO because to process an audio you have to send a sample (from sample rate) to the VST and get the result at the end. I follow your thoughts about Ableton focus on Live, but can't see how hard you'd be implement a full bypass.

The second part of your reply is too vague, would you mind to elaborate please? What kind of big problems really turn off plugins would cause to the user? Afaiu you're assuming a user mistake. For me is the same of don't disable auto fades and blame the DAW for it.

i doubt very much that the audio engine of Live is programmed in Python.

as for the second part of my reply, there are options that can cause unwanted things to happen, and then there are options that can cause VERY undesirable things to happen. in my opinion the kinds of audible glitches that are caused by large changes in latency settings are VERY undesirable in a live performance environment. of course you could add the feature and say that it is "user error" when something goes wrong, however part of user interface design is also weighing up the risks of possible user errors. the feature you are asking for would make it possible to easily make a mistake with very undesirable consequences when switching between production and live use.

i don't know how much live sound experience you have, however glitches are really unpleasant when they happen...

python and c++ basically

can you spot an example where a bypass can lead the user to problems?

the thread is not about glitches but ghost latency, let's keep the subject otherwise we gonna end up covering all ableton edge cases

thanks for the reply and nice discussion btw

[yur2die4]

I’d like to point out also that people don’t always just turn a device off or on for a particular situation. Sometimes people use device on off for Mapping (an example being chain selection or instrument selection), or for Automation.

So sometimes these devices will be turned off and on quite rapidly. Possibly even beyond a 32nd note interval etc.

[scg]

Regarding the meta-discussion about the software, I admit I'm a little skeptical about the claim that this should be simple to implement, or that the choice of programming language would be relevant (if Python is used, my guess is it's only for higher-level code like UI - I'd be surprised if it had any significant bearing on the core audio code). But, maybe you have something in mind that's not immediately obvious from the context.

In any case, different DAWs of course have different strengths and weaknesses. Just as an example, Ableton handles plugin bypass automation much better than Logic does (in my experience at least), which can be very useful for certain kinds of production (yur2die4 alluded to this above). So I certainly like how Ableton handles things in that regard. A 'disabled vs bypassed' feature might be a nice addition, but it also might be nontrivial to implement.

On the original topic though, are you having timing issues between tracks, or is it just that playback start is delayed, and the visuals (e.g. playhead) aren't in sync? I'm not clear which is happening from your video, and it seems relevant because the former would (IMO) be a more significant problem than the latter.