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My Live Suite 11 license got deactivated - one year after I bought it second hand
Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2023 5:54 pm
by fnord-23
Got my Suite 11 license almost a year ago via license transfer (second hand). I checked with Ableton support to make sure it's a legit transfer and all, like they advice on the knowledge base. I then paid the seller.
Now, by coincidence I noticed that my license is gone. Support said that apparently the license was initially paid over Klarna and the guy did a recharge after almost one year. There's nothing Ableton can do.
I'm pissed and devastated that I lost my license, there's no way I can afford another license. Ableton didn't say that the license I got wasn't even paid for or/and can be cancelled by the initial buyer any time apparently. I wonder how it's even possible that Ableton had to pay back the money after 10 months. Anyways, Ableton claims that they did not know that the license I could could be refunded any time. How can they not know this? If they take money that they have to pay back eventually I feel like they should know? In Germany nobody can take money from your account without your confirmation. (Well there are exceptions of course but you know what I mean)
I'm having a very hard time believing that Ableton was apparently forced to pay the money back to the first costumer 10 months after they officially confirmed the transfer and activated the license to my name and address. Especially since other companies, for example Native Instruments, have very simple measures to make this kind if scams impossible.
Guess I'll have to switch to Bitwig or something. They definitely lost a costumer that had been with them since Ableton Live 7.
Anybody has ever experienced anything like this or have any advice for me? I really love Ableton and I saved my money to get this license and now it's seems like I'm the one taking the damage unjust, having done everything like I should and they advised.
Re: My Live Suite 11 license got deactivated - one year after I bought it second hand
Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2023 9:02 pm
by Tarekith
We had a big run of scammers doing this here on the forums awhile back, which is one reason we no longer allow people to sell their license on the forum.
Sadly, Ableton has no idea if a credit card was stolen when it was used to buy a license, and if the owner of the card files a chargeback due to theft, Ableton is legally obligated to comply by EU law. It’s a shitty situation for sure, and one reason I always recommend people just buy a new license instead of used, unless they already know the seller.
FWIW, this situation was definitely affecting NI too, we talked to them when we noticed the same forum users trying to sell licenses on their site as ours.
Sorry, I know it’s not how you wanted things to play out, wish there was more to be done against the assholes doing this.
Re: My Live Suite 11 license got deactivated - one year after I bought it second hand
Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2023 9:25 pm
by chris harbin
Eeeeeeek.
Re: My Live Suite 11 license got deactivated - one year after I bought it second hand
Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2023 10:28 pm
by pottering
fnord-23 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 28, 2023 5:54 pm
Got my Suite 11 license almost a year ago via license transfer (second hand). I checked with Ableton support to make sure it's a legit transfer and all, like they advice on the knowledge base. I then paid the seller.
Now, by coincidence I noticed that my license is gone. Support said that apparently the license was initially paid over Klarna and the guy did a recharge after almost one year. There's nothing Ableton can do.
I'm pissed and devastated that I lost my license, there's no way I can afford another license. Ableton didn't say that the license I got wasn't even paid for or/and can be cancelled by the initial buyer any time apparently. I wonder how it's even possible that Ableton had to pay back the money after 10 months.
Anyways, Ableton claims that they did not know that the license I could could be refunded any time. How can they not know this? If they take money that they have to pay back eventually I feel like they should know? In Germany nobody can take money from your account without your confirmation. (Well there are exceptions of course but you know what I mean)
I'm having a very hard time believing that Ableton was apparently forced to pay the money back to the first costumer 10 months after they officially confirmed the transfer and activated the license to my name and address. Especially since other companies, for example Native Instruments, have very simple measures to make this kind if scams impossible.
Guess I'll have to switch to Bitwig or something. They definitely lost a costumer that had been with them since Ableton Live 7.
Anybody has ever experienced anything like this or have any advice for me? I really love Ableton and I saved my money to get this license and now it's seems like I'm the one taking the damage unjust, having done everything like I should and they advised.
Contact the seller and explain how the license was voided, maybe it was an honest mistake.
Otherwise, contact your credit card company and explain how you were scammed, and should contact police as well, nowadays police have "cyber crime" divisions.
Also, in some EU countries (maybe whole EU) the limit to charge back with a credit card is 13 months, and that's to contact the bank/credit card company, even more time could have passed after the contact until the charge back is granted by the bank/cc company.
Re: My Live Suite 11 license got deactivated - one year after I bought it second hand
Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:53 am
by fnord-23
Thanks for your help.
That explains a lot already. Still can't believe that Ableton received a payment from Klarna with them not knowing at all that it came from Klarna. Seriously, how should that work? I never used Klarna though, so maybe I'm completely wrong here(?)
Unfortunately, i already contacted my bank and there's absolutely no way that they can get back my money after 10 months. In Germany afaik it's impossible to recharge a private transaction, especially after this amount of time. That's why I'm even more surprised that Ableton was forced to pay back after 10 months. And I'm the one taking the damage.
I'll have to file charges with the police unfortunately. There's very little chance of success, Ableton doesn't want to reveal the name and data of the initial buyer. I know nothing about the person except a (fake) name and the bank account details.
Re: My Live Suite 11 license got deactivated - one year after I bought it second hand
Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2023 4:09 pm
by pottering
And who said the credit card and purchase data belong to the same person that scammed you?
Could have been credit card fraud, the name in the credit card could belong to some person that doesn't even know what Ableton is, and only noticed the fraudulent purchases 10 months later.
Ableton can't just give people's name and BANKING DATA to someone complaining about a personal transaction that actually has nothing to do with them (their license transfer system has nothing to do with monetary any transactions, it is free, people use to gift Lite licenses all the time, you can transfer between accounts that you control, etc.).
Re: My Live Suite 11 license got deactivated - one year after I bought it second hand
Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2023 6:59 pm
by chris harbin
This seems awfully strange to me. I don't understand how this happened after a year.
Re: My Live Suite 11 license got deactivated - one year after I bought it second hand
Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:46 pm
by Tarekith
It’s happened a few times sadly
Re: My Live Suite 11 license got deactivated - one year after I bought it second hand
Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2023 8:26 pm
by vel Ski
10 months later is scary, got me worrying about my own license a year after purchasing
PayPal buyer protection only lasts for 180 days, I'd be out of money. Definitely give Bitwig a shot, plenty of videos on transitioning from Ableton to Bitwig.
Re: My Live Suite 11 license got deactivated - one year after I bought it second hand
Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2023 9:51 pm
by fnord-23
We'll see how it goes. I contacted Klarna and the costumer service was actually quite friendly and helpful.
I know it's a fraud and the person might have done this using fake accounts and even using another person's credit card. Not blaming Ableton for not telling me the name, of course they are not allowed to do it. I just honestly blame them for not telling me that the license was paid with Klarna, even when I asked them to verify. That's, after all, exactly what they tell you to do if in doubt.
That's why insist that they activate my license again. But they still blame the fault on me and Klarna for some reason. Not very happy with that.
It's hard transition to another DAW when all i know is Ableton .
Re: My Live Suite 11 license got deactivated - one year after I bought it second hand
Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 1:29 am
by pottering
Pretty bad idea for Ableton to let people keep licenses bought with fraud, that would incentive further fraud, with claims of "victim-less" crime (claiming Ableton lost nothing because "it is just a software copy").
In fact, if Ableton did that, it would be impossible to make a legal case against such scammers if they were arrested (most likely due to other crimes), since victims like OP would actually gotten the software license that was advertised (not to mention those victims would never report the crime then).
I would not be surprised if it was police or a prosecutor that told Ableton not to let people keep a license result of fraud.
Re: My Live Suite 11 license got deactivated - one year after I bought it second hand
Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 4:42 am
by fishmonkey
Re: My Live Suite 11 license got deactivated - one year after I bought it second hand
Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 6:50 am
by fnord-23
For the records: I only paid the seller after I asked Ableton to validate the license. If Ableton wouldn't lie about the integrity of the license (final payment not done or refundable at any moment, they knew and didn't say anything) there would be no problem.
If I know I buy a sketchy license and something happens, I won't be mad at Ableton of course. If they lie or withhold information I'm mad.
Am I the only one with that opinion?
It's a half assed transfer system with their actual costumers taking the damage. And it needs to change. How about just not transferring licenses that aren't save. Or at least tell me !
Re: My Live Suite 11 license got deactivated - one year after I bought it second hand
Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:47 am
by fishmonkey
fnord-23 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 6:50 am
For the records: I only paid the seller after I asked Ableton to validate the license. If Ableton wouldn't lie about the integrity of the license (final payment not done or refundable at any moment, they knew and didn't say anything) there would be no problem.
If I know I buy a sketchy license and something happens, I won't be mad at Ableton of course. If they lie or withhold information I'm mad.
Am I the only one with that opinion?
It's a half assed transfer system with their actual costumers taking the damage. And it needs to change. How about just not transferring licenses that aren't save. Or at least tell me !
the situation is a shitty one for sure.
Ableton hasn't lied to you though. they can tell you that the license itself is legitimate, but how were they to know that the original payment would turn out to be fraudulent 10 months later?
if Ableton allowed you to keep the license they would be accepting that this is a valid way to steal licenses from them. where would they draw the line?
in most parts of the world, if you buy something that later turns out to be stolen, you don't automatically get to keep it.
Re: My Live Suite 11 license got deactivated - one year after I bought it second hand
Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 10:15 am
by fnord-23
I'm not claiming I'm entitled to keep a stolen good.
Just can't exactly get my head around his they didn't know it was a Klarna payment. Like technically, how did that work?
Thanks for your help, I'll stay in contact with Klarna, the police and Ableton, maybe it works out.
In Germany you can always see who paid you on your account and also once the money is there, it's very hard to get it back. Once it's there, it's there. (Otherwise I'd just get my money back after 10 months from the seller of course.) If Ableton gets money from Klarna there's near 0% chance they didn't know that. It should literally say in the details and name that it came through their service. That's the part that I'm having a hard time believing.
If companies like Klarna can access Ableton's money at any time without them even knowing of the possibility beforehands I think there's something wrong with them and they also should have a big fat disclaimer with the transfer service instead of saying "Just have the license validated by us and you're fine". Which is exactly what I did.
Maybe that explains why I'm so pissed.
Edit:
how were they to know that the original payment would turn out to be fraudulent 10 months later?
If the payment is on Ableton's account, it's there. In Germany it's very hard to get a payment back if it's a normal transaction. Especially after 10 months. Klarna's support also said that it's not possible to refund after 10 month. The license was likely not even paid for/paid in rates. Ableton then transferred a licenses that wasn't even paid for. I can't see a reason why they should not know if a license is paid for. And if they can't tell they should let me know when I ask if the license might be from a scammer.
I hope that explains my mood :-/