Ableton Forum

Hello Hello,

Reaktor 6, VST3, Live 11.2.1

Since one of the latests versions, I noticed that program changes message don't go correctly to VST3.
Hope this is just me and not a big bug.

I load a VST3 plugin in a track, I send Program Change, the VST3 doesn't receive the Program Change whatever the way to send it from a clip using bank sub-bank pc features to a dedicated max for live firing a plain program change message in the midi standard.

We can "see" the message sent in front of the VST3 device on the leds bar. But the message isn't well received within the VST3.

I tried some Native instruments, Reaktor ensembles too. Same.

When these plugins got a AUv2 versions, I could test and ... program changes go well and are well received.

(Problem, AUv2 doesn't provide MIDI Out and, in my case, I use MIDI Out because I use some reaktor ensembles for firing midi notes which I need to receive in other midi tracks in Live)

More informations:
- the same VST3 loaded into another DAW receives program changes correctly (and behaves as it should)
- the same VST3 loaded a [vst~] object in Max 8 can receive program changes correctly (and behaves as it should) too

Did someone noticed that ?

Here is a video in which I just fire plain program change message from a max for live device to an ensemble running in Reaktor AUv2 version (working as expected) and Reaktor VST3 version (doesn’t work) :

https://youtu.be/NnMLli9Bl_8

I’d need VST3 as I need midi outputs from the plugin, which is not in the AU standard, unfortunately.

Yeah. An huge design "mistake" as the fact that only MIDI Channel 1 is flowing (no MIDI Channel 2-16)

lalo wrote: ↑

Thu May 18, 2023 1:03 pm

Yeah. An huge design "mistake" as the fact that only MIDI Channel 1 is flowing (no MIDI Channel 2-16)

I don't really agree with the one you mention.
At least, the paradigm they chose (one track, one midi channel) is not really blocking, in my opinion, and more than 15 years of use.

Well just opinions and use cases I guess. 13 years of use and several times i've struggled with that limitation (mostly in the M4L realm).

Is this due to the rather "peculiar" way the early vst3 spec was done by steinberg (and ableton haven't updated yet to the newest, which AFAIK does support program change) or is this a clear bug in the implementation?
Either way, for someone for whom this is a blocking issue, it probably makes sense to contact support over this

randi wrote: ↑

Thu May 18, 2023 1:33 pm

Either way, for someone for whom this is a blocking issue, it probably makes sense to contact support over this

Did several request in the last 10 years probably not a priority since Live is moving more and more toward a DAW paradigm and still lacking some features from a live performance tool perspective.

My post was for Julien and the actual topic of this thread

randi wrote: ↑

Thu May 18, 2023 1:33 pm

Is this due to the rather "peculiar" way the early vst3 spec was done by steinberg (and ableton haven't updated yet to the newest, which AFAIK does support program change) or is this a clear bug in the implementation?
Either way, for someone for whom this is a blocking issue, it probably makes sense to contact support over this

I did.
They answered suddenly that they were happy as it has been solved for me, which it didn't happen actually.
This is still annoying.

I investigated a bit.

The SAME vst3 works very fine in other daw, receiving program change.
AND program changes works fine in Live for any other kind of use (from live to external, from external to live, within live between devices, m4l or whatever)

BUT not here in VST3 device in Live. Actually.

I'm very surprised we are not a lot to figure this out, and I first thought it was my own os+live+stuff combinations but it doesn't seem to be this.

I've never really used program changes for VSTs but I just gave it a try using both the VST2 and VST3 versions of NI Massive.
I can only confirm what you're seeing:
VST2 version switches presets as expected
VST3 does not switch presets at all.

All I know is. I love program change. And vst3 is usually my default plugins (doesn’t vst3 have some routing advantages over AU or something like that?).

So I’d really be happy if this was resolved in the very very near future.

One of the features of VST3 I like and actually need is its ability to pop out midi messages.

Actually, it is just a requirements for anyone using Reaktor, for instance.

I can confirm that program change is not working for VST3s. Quite annoying for live performances

stereodrive wrote: ↑

Sat May 27, 2023 9:35 pm

I can confirm that program change is not working for VST3s. Quite annoying for live performances

Apparently, we are in a dead end corner of users still using this, amongst 99.99% no more using this.