11.3.2 update was very poorly handled

[Angstrom]

So, I'm looking around to try and find out why 11.3.2 behaves so badly, unresponsive on larger sets, redraw errors, firewall alerts etc.

There's some talk on reddit that Live 11.3.2 is recalculating all the warping in sets as they load, so apparently if we load a big set "just wait for a bit until it sorts itself out". For each set? But there's no info from Ableton

I'm working on a a few large sets, one set has got 14 gig of waves in it. It's 30 minutes long. Live is stumbling all over the place.

Why didn't ableton alert us to this at all?
Why are Ableton re-warping my sets without any kind of "OK" button?
Why is this actually necessary on existing sets, do they actually need "re-warping"?
What is actually happening, where is the news article or tech article about this?

Whose genius idea was it to push a forced update on everyone's sets that are in production and not even provide a text note about it!?

why are "Current Live 11 versions: Live 11.2.11 & Live 11.3.1b5" and here I am on 11.3.2 ?

[Sibanger]

Post deleted

[redvet66]

what the hell is this update for Ableton 11?. It's become totally unusable. Heavy CPU-hungry, crashes just like there's no tomorrow. And for what? for a Push 3 integration and a quite average plugin synth?
Thank goodness I still have Studio One.

[[jur]]

Angstrom, L11.3 has an improved auto-warp, so audio files need to be recalculated to update their .asd.
This just need to be done once, though.
If you observe something different (e.g it repeats the process for a set you've already open in L11.3), then this not expected and, you know... support

[Julia123]

Hmm. I thought my computer was just getting old. I had two projects where I split them in two and had to work in halves and then re combine them after. Not sure if this is 11.3.2 or not though.

[grrrz]

yes basically if you load an existing set wait for it to recalculate every asd; then save. it can take a while depending on how many clips you have.
are there other issues?
also; if you're working on something critical; I'd suggest deactivating auto-update; there's always a risk of something going wrong with every update. You also can also revert back to any version (here)

[pottering]

The beta had a mechanism NOT to re-save the .asd (to ensure compatibility with non-beta version in case of bugs), but seems that ended up hiding a problem that the beta testers could not see.

[Angstrom]

I can understand the point of an improved autowarp if I were dragging unknown waves into a new arrangement. But what I can't understand why "autowarp" is happening at all on files I recorded into a session months ago.

These files don't need to be "autowarped". They are 87bpm waves recorded into an 87 BPM song. There's no actual warping, no warp markers at all even, it's just that (as we know) warp has to be on for much of lives functionality to work on clips.

So what is live doing to my recordings? What is happening during this slowdown? What is being changed?

Is there an article to read about this quite large change and the implications? Is there a warning detailing the alterations to my material in the change log? Because I looked and couldn't find anything

[chris harbin]

I guess my stuff, the "demos" of some packs, the demo song isn't complex/hot enough to generate what you guys are going through.

During the beta cycle, I started, use and fiddled with many things including track presets, sets, templates, songs and various others. All of them played w/o a hickup when trying the 11.3.2 update. In fact, the only issue I had was when updating I had to make a kinda new folder to install it in (it said the other part with 11.2.11 was "invalid" or some such thing.

No CPU dif, no crashes, no hickups, nothing out of the ordinary.

Clearly there is an issue. We tried wit da beta

[grrrz]

I can understand the point of an improved autowarp if I were dragging unknown waves into a new arrangement. But what I can't understand why "autowarp" is happening at all on files I recorded into a session months ago.

These files don't need to be "autowarped". They are 87bpm waves recorded into an 87 BPM song. There's no actual warping, no warp markers at all even, it's just that (as we know) warp has to be on for much of lives functionality to work on clips.

So what is live doing to my recordings? What is happening during this slowdown? What is being changed?

Is there an article to read about this quite large change and the implications? Is there a warning detailing the alterations to my material in the change log? Because I looked and couldn't find anything

ok that's annoying but it doesn't have to make sense; live is simply recalculating all the asd; which takes a while; warp or not (I have sessions with no warp and it still takes a minute or two); and if you have a lot it will take long. if you notice the song being altered after it's being all loaded or other issues then it's a problem; otherwise if everything's fine once you've loaded all and saved then it's just an inconvenience.

[grrrz]

The beta had a mechanism NOT to re-save the .asd (to ensure compatibility with non-beta version in case of bugs), but seems that ended up hiding a problem that the beta testers could not see.

ok but what problem are you specifically referring to; apart from waiting for your asd to be regenerated when you first open a set? people making seem like there are other issues here, which has me worried; but if live struggles for a while when opening a set that's because it takes CPU to generate the asd, just you know; be patient until you see every waveform on the set.

[Angstrom]

ok that's annoying but it doesn't have to make sense; live is simply recalculating all the asd; which takes a while;

well, that's where I'd have to disagree. I think it probably should make sense.
I mean, if something is happening, some process which requires a couple of minutes and makes the UI unresponsive during that time, then I would hope that the reason for it made a whole lot of sense. Because every old song I open is going to do this, so it needs to make amazing sense, really persuasive sense.

if you notice the song being altered after it's being all loaded or other issues then it's a problem; otherwise if everything's fine once you've loaded all and saved then it's just an inconvenience.

Now I feel like the experience of anyone on the beta, and those of us in the "real world" differs greatly. I suspect there was some discussion about this topic in the beta, as there are references in this thread to topics like the .asd not being calculated for old sets ... implying there was discussion and information passed down the chain. So everyone on the beta was aware of the idea of asd being recalculated, or at least the broad concept. It was not a shock.

Now, meanwhile out here in the real world we are totally in the dark. This is not only a brand new thing to us, it's unexpected and unexplained. There is no warning and no information. All we know is that our copy of Live is unresponsive, and we see lots of other "real world" people online saying the same thing and talking about rolling back. We don't know that it is related to autowarping, nor do we know why it's messing with our old songs. We are totally in the dark and experiencing degraded performance. It's unexpected and unexplained behaviour. It's easy to be dismissive, but think about it from a UX perspective. This is not great.

Now my position is that this was a badly handled update, there was not enough information to customers, and also the feature should not be altering old sets in any way without a modal dialog box to at least warn/advise .

[grrrz]

We don't know that it is related to autowarping, nor do we know why it's messing with our old songs.
that's pretty easy to figure out. the waveform will only appear once a clip has been calculated. you can check out all your clips and see if the waveform is displayed. if not that means wait some more. You talked about several gb of samples in the first post; yes that could take a while. once this is done you can check every clip; then save. if you have other problems after reopening then there's another issue. calculating waveforms always takes some time; usually you do one at a time so you don't notice; but if it's a whole set then yes you're gonna notice. live may be hardly responsive then for a while; that's not surprising; I've opened large sessions before where the asd didn't exist anymore and that's expected.
my position is you should never allow auto-update; and when doing an update you better do a bit of reading on what it does and what it could affect. and yes they should have put a special note of this in bold in the release note.

[Angstrom]

my position is you should never allow auto-update; and when doing an update you better do a bit of reading on what it does and what it could affect. and yes they should have put a special note of this in bold in the release note.

So to address your accusations of it being my fault and that I'm some kind of incompetent newb. Here's MY position on your painting me as at fault in raising this issue.

1: I should never allow auto update = Check passed, I did not allow auto update

2: I should "do a bit of reading"
Yes, that's good. Well, I read the changelogs here: https://www.ableton.com/en/release-notes/live-11/

and lets throw in a point 3 about leaving users in the dark, and whether the cause of the issue is "obvious"
3: "that's pretty easy to figure out. the waveform will only appear once a clip has been calculated."

and let me tell you the change logs say

11.3.2 Release Notes
New features and improvements:
Auto-Warp Improvements:
Live now uses a new Auto-Warp algorithm. Both downbeat and tempo variations are more accurately analyzed, making it possible to work with longer samples and entire songs without the need for manual warping in most cases.
To run the new Auto-Warp algorithm on clips within an existing Live Set, use any of the Warp From Here commands (found in the Sample Editor's context menu) from any location in a clip.

Now, if you can manage a bit of reading, what does that say about autowarp in existing sets?

Can you point out the part where I " better do a bit of reading on what it does and what it could affect." Please help me great sage. You seem to know where I am in the wrong. So please paste the information from the changelogs here that I "better do a bit of reading on "

Perhaps you don't understand what you are attempting to do to me, to belittle me and what I am talking about. You are trying to make it my fault.
You claim there's no real problem, the fact that wave re-analysis is obvious, that the UX slowdown is not significant, that I'm at fault for updating, and that I shouldn't update without reading the materials about what it might affect.

My contention is: there is a problem, as agreed by Ableton support. Wave reanalysis is meant to only happen when triggered by user action "warp from here", updating was intentional and based on the information available. There was no indication that existing sets would experience slowdown, and that UI would become unresponsive. This is not intended behaviour.

But there's always someone who tries to say "well, it works great for me".

Good job buddy. please, continue to try to belittle or undermine me. You are doing a great job.

Ableton support
"The latest Live 11.3.2 uses an updated warp mode that requires the re-drawing of waveforms for any existing audio Clip previously analyzed
in a set.We are aware that this process is causing in some cases lags in the GUI and we are looking into this."

[grrrz]

my position is you should never allow auto-update; and when doing an update you better do a bit of reading on what it does and what it could affect. and yes they should have put a special note of this in bold in the release note.

So to address your accusations of it being my fault and that I'm some kind of incompetent newb. Here's MY position on your painting me as at fault in raising this issue.

1: I should never allow auto update = Check passed, I did not allow auto update

2: I should "do a bit of reading"
Yes, that's good. Well, I read the changelogs here: https://www.ableton.com/en/release-notes/live-11/

and lets throw in a point 3 about leaving users in the dark, and whether the cause of the issue is "obvious"
3: "that's pretty easy to figure out. the waveform will only appear once a clip has been calculated."

and let me tell you the change logs say

11.3.2 Release Notes
New features and improvements:
Auto-Warp Improvements:
Live now uses a new Auto-Warp algorithm. Both downbeat and tempo variations are more accurately analyzed, making it possible to work with longer samples and entire songs without the need for manual warping in most cases.
To run the new Auto-Warp algorithm on clips within an existing Live Set, use any of the Warp From Here commands (found in the Sample Editor's context menu) from any location in a clip.

Now, if you can manage a bit of reading, what does that say about autowarp in existing sets?

Can you point out the part where I " better do a bit of reading on what it does and what it could affect." Please help me great sage. You seem to know where I am in the wrong. So please paste the information from the changelogs here that I "better do a bit of reading on "

Perhaps you don't understand what you are attempting to do to me, to belittle me and what I am talking about. You are trying to make it my fault.
You claim there's no real problem, the fact that wave re-analysis is obvious, that the UX slowdown is not significant, that I'm at fault for updating, and that I shouldn't update without reading the materials about what it might affect.

My contention is: there is a problem, as agreed by Ableton support. Wave reanalysis is meant to only happen when triggered by user action "warp from here", updating was intentional and based on the information available. There was no indication that existing sets would experience slowdown, and that UI would become unresponsive. This is not intended behaviour.

But there's always someone who tries to say "well, it works great for me".

Good job buddy. please, continue to try to belittle or undermine me. You are doing a great job.

Ableton support
"The latest Live 11.3.2 uses an updated warp mode that requires the re-drawing of waveforms for any existing audio Clip previously analyzed
in a set.We are aware that this process is causing in some cases lags in the GUI and we are looking into this."

hey look I'm sorry; I wasn't trying to offend you or anything or be agressive; I'm sorry if that's what came across. I meant that as a general warning; not to you in particular; I should have phrased it better.
If you read my last comment I say they should have mentioned it somewhere; they didn't (I had checked also before). It sucks that it affects you this much, but the support response means it is indeed recreating the asd files; so this is a one time and done thing.
The fact is I did the update as well yesterday; had the issue you described, was worried for a few seconds then figured out what it was (because it happened to me before); and reading panicked comments here made me worried there was something else wrong which is exactly what I was asking, as I have something coming up and wondered if I should have waited. Now if it's the only issue; ok that's not great if you're on the clock right now; but me I'd be relieved because I'm gonna be able to work without issues in the coming weeks without having to downgrade or whatever.