So... Live on Linux?

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
antic604
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So... Live on Linux?

Post by antic604 » Mon May 29, 2023 8:24 pm

Now, since Push 3 standalone runs Live on some version of Linux, what are the chances the actual DAW also gets released on Linux?

In last couple of years audio environment for Linux has become very robust, with many DAWs (Reaper, Bitwig, Waveform, Ardour - to name the key players) and hundreds of VST plugins. Due to lower OS overhead it also runs better than Windows, probably on par with macOS. Also Linux distros have become much easier to install, use and maintain, especially those derived from Ubuntu (Elementary, Mint, Zorin, Pop!OS and so on); to the point that a moderately advanced Windows user should easily feel at home there.

I, for one, would love to use Live on Linux!

What are the community's thoughts on this?

Tarekith
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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by Tarekith » Mon May 29, 2023 9:16 pm

It’s a massive amount of support and development for an extremely tiny user base, so my vote is slim to none.
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jlgrimes
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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by jlgrimes » Tue May 30, 2023 1:38 am

antic604 wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 8:24 pm
Now, since Push 3 standalone runs Live on some version of Linux, what are the chances the actual DAW also gets released on Linux?

In last couple of years audio environment for Linux has become very robust, with many DAWs (Reaper, Bitwig, Waveform, Ardour - to name the key players) and hundreds of VST plugins. Due to lower OS overhead it also runs better than Windows, probably on par with macOS. Also Linux distros have become much easier to install, use and maintain, especially those derived from Ubuntu (Elementary, Mint, Zorin, Pop!OS and so on); to the point that a moderately advanced Windows user should easily feel at home there.

I, for one, would love to use Live on Linux!

What are the community's thoughts on this?
It increases the chance. But I'm thinking they still have hurdles.

Push 3 might be them developing for Linux.

So far no audio interface support and no VSTs, and probably other things. I'd say it's still a long ride.

antic604
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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by antic604 » Tue May 30, 2023 10:18 am

jlgrimes wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 1:38 am
It increases the chance. But I'm thinking they still have hurdles.

Push 3 might be them developing for Linux.

So far no audio interface support and no VSTs, and probably other things. I'd say it's still a long ride.
Yeah, I'm not saying it's ready for release but clearly they've Live (& Max For Live) running on Linux right now and have to maintain it in parallel with Windows & macOS versions, so why not release it? I know literally many people who moved to Bitwig only because of Linux support (and then fell in love for other reasons...). Lack of plugin support I believe is clearly for Push stability and Intel i3 performance, not a technical hurdle that they can't cross.

antic604
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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by antic604 » Tue May 30, 2023 10:18 am

Tarekith wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 9:16 pm
It’s a massive amount of support and development for an extremely tiny user base, so my vote is slim to none.
It's not tiny. In Bitwig's case it's close to 1/4 of users (yes, I'm aware Bitwig is probably 1/50th of Live).

And as I've said above it's already ported and they have to maintain and update it alongside Windows and macOS versions anyway.

yur2die4
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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by yur2die4 » Tue May 30, 2023 12:11 pm

You’re talking about maintaining a closed and deliberately restricted system vs supporting one on a wide open format.

If they strictly released today what they have on Push, but for a computer, but charged the full price of Live (Live outside of Push has a lot more features and functionality, but if it’s a port, it obviously wouldn’t have those features without a lot lot of work), so if ppl paid full Ableton Live price, for just a software version of what’s on currently Standalone Push, they’d get hammered with negative user experiences.

antic604
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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by antic604 » Tue May 30, 2023 1:52 pm

yur2die4 wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 12:11 pm
You’re talking about maintaining a closed and deliberately restricted system vs supporting one on a wide open format.

If they strictly released today what they have on Push, but for a computer, but charged the full price of Live (Live outside of Push has a lot more features and functionality, but if it’s a port, it obviously wouldn’t have those features without a lot lot of work), so if ppl paid full Ableton Live price, for just a software version of what’s on currently Standalone Push, they’d get hammered with negative user experiences.
What functionalities does Live have that Push 3 doesn't? It plays all the projects, including ones that only live in Arranger View, so it seems to be a complete DAW, but you only have access to limited features that make sense for the controller.

Also, I'm aware it might be a tailored version for closed box of Push, but it doesn't have to be the case. And even if it is, the bulk of work to port the DAW to Linux is already done and - IMO - it would be a total waste of resources NOT to release it.

I'd gladly move to Linux from Windows if I could use it there!

resequenced
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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by resequenced » Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:25 pm

Tarekith wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 9:16 pm
It’s a massive amount of support and development for an extremely tiny user base, so my vote is slim to none.
One of the reasons I've bought the Push 3 standalone is that it runs Linux. It doesn't have to rely on some Windows or macOS device. It's also not a Macbook or Mac mini with everything soldered to the motherboard and with extremely expensive RAM and storage upgrades. Apple and Microsoft can't barge in to say that the software isn't supported anymore and that it's time to buy a new computer for 2000 more dollars or euros. It depends only on Ableton.

The Push 3 is a device which can be upgraded and have its storage replaced. I understand that Ableton is used to moving money with a virtual shovel. Ableton makes a lot of money thanks to the number of Ableton Live licenses, upgrades from one version to the next and upgrades from the lower tier editions of Live to the more expensive ones.

The Push 3 standalone can be used without having to start a computer. It's a device you use the same as many sequencers, synths and grooveboxes. You turn it on and you use it. You don't have to deal with Microsoft's ads, suggestions, forced restarts and other adware found on Windows systems. You also don't deal with Apple accounts, iCloud/Messages prompts to sign in and what not.

The people at Ableton may also not want to be narrow minded and short-sighted when it comes to this. There's no reason to buy the Push 3 standalone if it remains as limited and unstable. There's also no reason for me to support Ableton at all.

Live Suite 11.2 runs under Wine. I'm able to play back the demo set with 455% CPU usage flawlessly. wineasio would be required to reduce the CPU usage. The UI is extremely responsive. A native version of Live for Linux would be just what we need to ditch Windows and Apple's Mac when using Live.

Live Suite 11.3.2 can't finish the installation under Wine. This is caused by the failure to install the driver for Push 3 during the installation of Live Suite. An option to not install the driver for Push would be great.

A potential lower effort solution would be to address the performance and bugs encountered on Wine. This would be a semi-supported configuration. It'd have warnings for crashes and potential data loss. People would still be able to report crashes.

Supporting a Linux version of Live wouldn't have to be a big deal. There's no need to support one thousand Linux distributions with one million possible configurations. You could distribute Live in a flatpak just like Bitwig does. That's what people usually do to package their apps in a distribution agnostic way.

Does anyone recall Valve Steam Machines experiment? Outsiders may have said that it was a complete and total failure. People didn't buy the hardware because games couldn't be played on those machines. Valve had the hardware and the games to play on the hardware. They lacked the compatibility layer. Outsiders could've said there's no market for Linux based devices for gaming. Valve invested in wine, dxvk, proton, vkd3d, the Linux kernel, KDE Plasma and many other software projects. That's how they got themselves the missing piece of the puzzle. Have you noticed how successful the Steam Deck is now? It also runs plenty of games for it to be taken seriously. Valve has gone ahead and made themselves this market. Outsiders would have simply said there's no market for gaming on Linux.

Ableton's job is much easier. Live is already mostly ported over to Linux for the Push 3 standalone.
yur2die4 wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 12:11 pm
You’re talking about maintaining a closed and deliberately restricted system vs supporting one on a wide open format.

If they strictly released today what they have on Push, but for a computer, but charged the full price of Live (Live outside of Push has a lot more features and functionality, but if it’s a port, it obviously wouldn’t have those features without a lot lot of work), so if ppl paid full Ableton Live price, for just a software version of what’s on currently Standalone Push, they’d get hammered with negative user experiences.
I have bad news for you. They're getting hammered with negative feedback for the Push 3 already. Once you leave the feel good, excited and somewhat irresponsible YouTube reviews behind, you start to see feedback from users who have these devices in their hands. They'll have to implement a lot of features for this Push version of Live and implement missing features in order to deliver a properly functioning product to their customers. They're pretty much forced to do this because they've made it very expensive. The alternative is that they show everyone they just want to grab the money and ignore customers.

The more important components such as the audio engine, midi handling, Max 4 Live, all the devices (synths, simpler, effects) and the other things have been implemented already for the Push 3 standalone. It might not seem like much at first sight based on the current features, due to its limited graphical UI and due to its current stability issues. They've done a significant part of the work already. The parts which are left to be done are related to the UI and other features which aren't yet available.

A Push 3 standalone with a laptop running Linux would be the ideal combination for me. The alternative is to give up on the Push 3 standalone and buy a different controller to use with Bitwig or something else which runs on Linux.

autodidactic
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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by autodidactic » Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:50 am

Tarekith wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 9:16 pm
It’s a massive amount of support and development for an extremely tiny user base, so my vote is slim to none.
What development? The development is already done. They just need to release it. As far as support is concerned, if they don't want the support burden, they can just quietly put it out there and mark it as experimental item for beta testers. They can leave it with that designation indefinitely even. The ppl that have been wanting this for years won't care.

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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by [jur] » Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:25 pm

autodidactic wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:50 am
Tarekith wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 9:16 pm
It’s a massive amount of support and development for an extremely tiny user base, so my vote is slim to none.
What development? The development is already done.
Are you a developer ? A developer at Ableton?
Don't you think there's reasons it's not available? Let's imagine Ableton is just all after making money, wouldn't they take this Linux opportunity to make more money if the development was "already done"?

It's tempting to imagine things are easily done when we don't really know what it implies.
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fedexnman
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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by fedexnman » Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:31 pm

Look what Valve Steam has done for gaming !!! SteamDeck which runs SteamOS (Arch based Linux) then there is the Steam client or app ... That runs on Linux and uses Proton to run most Windows games .... Ableton could make there own LiveOS or AbleOS too and release audio interfaces , tablets , laptops, that all run it ... And also release something that can help run Windows VST too ... It's very possible .... Valve has done it .

fishmonkey
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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by fishmonkey » Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:31 am

fedexnman wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:31 pm
Look what Valve Steam has done for gaming !!! SteamDeck which runs SteamOS (Arch based Linux) then there is the Steam client or app ... That runs on Linux and uses Proton to run most Windows games .... Ableton could make there own LiveOS or AbleOS too and release audio interfaces , tablets , laptops, that all run it ... And also release something that can help run Windows VST too ... It's very possible .... Valve has done it .
that is so not a reasonable comparison!

if a game doesn't run or crashes or has poor performance on the SteamDeck, people will complain but it's not the end of the world — they can simply play another game. and modern games use a lot of resources however reliable audio computation and streaming for music production is far less forgiving than any game. it's not the end of the world if your game stutters or drops a few frames here and there, however stutters and glitches are not really acceptable for what Ableton Live is made for...

resequenced
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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by resequenced » Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:40 pm

[jur] wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:25 pm
autodidactic wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:50 am
Tarekith wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 9:16 pm
It’s a massive amount of support and development for an extremely tiny user base, so my vote is slim to none.
What development? The development is already done.
Are you a developer ? A developer at Ableton?
Don't you think there's reasons it's not available? Let's imagine Ableton is just all after making money, wouldn't they take this Linux opportunity to make more money if the development was "already done"?

It's tempting to imagine things are easily done when we don't really know what it implies.
Do you own a Push 3 standalone? If you don't own one or haven't noticed, it runs on Linux already. It has a good chunk of Live's code on it already. Live Suite is able to run on the Push 3 standalone and use almost all the content and instruments from the Live Suite packs. It doesn't have all the features of Live for Windows or for MacOS. It's still the same code, even if it's not all of it or if it uses some slightly different code paths on the Push 3.

This means that most of the work for the underlying code has been done already. It's only a matter of wanting to accept that or not. There's nothing more for me to tell you.

The reality is that they need to have the required perspective and take the time to do the work.
fishmonkey wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:31 am
fedexnman wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:31 pm
Look what Valve Steam has done for gaming !!! SteamDeck which runs SteamOS (Arch based Linux) then there is the Steam client or app ... That runs on Linux and uses Proton to run most Windows games .... Ableton could make there own LiveOS or AbleOS too and release audio interfaces , tablets , laptops, that all run it ... And also release something that can help run Windows VST too ... It's very possible .... Valve has done it .
that is so not a reasonable comparison!

if a game doesn't run or crashes or has poor performance on the SteamDeck, people will complain but it's not the end of the world — they can simply play another game. and modern games use a lot of resources however reliable audio computation and streaming for music production is far less forgiving than any game. it's not the end of the world if your game stutters or drops a few frames here and there, however stutters and glitches are not really acceptable for what Ableton Live is made for...
This is a good analogy because the argument was that there's no market for DAWs on Linux and there are few users there. There was no market for gaming on Linux before Valve helped make that happen. People can't say there's no market for gaming on Linux today.

That's where the analogy stops being a good one. The situation with Live is different. Live is developed by one company, not by thousands of people and companies across the world. It's not as if Ableton has to make thousands of third party DAWs and tools run on Linux. Ableton wouldn't have to get some unmaintained Windows only software to run on Linux. That would be the exact equivalent of the situation Valve was in with making things work for the Steam Deck and for gaming on Linux.

Ableton is in a much better position with Live. The Push 3 standalone already runs a good chunk of Live on Linux. Even the logs show that the process' name is Live and its version is 11.3.2. Ableton also has Live's source code, they're actively developing it and they can do the work. The version of Live which runs on the Push 3 will require work to have the missing must have features implemented and the bugs fixed.

It might be difficult for some to understand or accept. The point is that it's not as difficult as people make it to be. Bitwig has done the work and published a Linux version already.

antic604
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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by antic604 » Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:50 pm

fedexnman wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:31 pm
Look what Valve Steam has done for gaming !!! SteamDeck which runs SteamOS (Arch based Linux) then there is the Steam client or app ... That runs on Linux and uses Proton to run most Windows games .... Ableton could make there own LiveOS or AbleOS too and release audio interfaces , tablets , laptops, that all run it ... And also release something that can help run Windows VST too ... It's very possible .... Valve has done it .
That would be utterly stupid and wasteful...

There's a thriving music production ecosystem on LInux already, with great DAWs (Bitwig, Reaper, Waveform, etc.), constantly growing list of plugin developers (incl. Audio Damage, disco DSP, Loomer, Surge, TAL Software, VCV, U-He, Vital and many, many more) and number of distributions with low-latency kernels optimised for audio processing.

Ableton should simply make the Live running on Push3 more "general", i.e. so that it can run on most Linux distros.

fedexnman
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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by fedexnman » Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:14 pm

That's cool . I'm fine with a Plain Jane native Linux version , 11 intro standard and suite . ..and about Valve , .Valve's SteamDeck has sold over 3 million units as of April 2023 . Asus has released a similar product last month that runs on Windows11 with bigger better faster software but folks seem to like the SteamDeck OS better over Windows 11 ...

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