So... Live on Linux?

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
Ndorar
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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by Ndorar » Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:27 pm

antic604 wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 10:18 am
jlgrimes wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 1:38 am
It increases the chance. But I'm thinking they still have hurdles.

Push 3 might be them developing for Linux.

So far no audio interface support and no VSTs, and probably other things. I'd say it's still a long ride.
Yeah, I'm not saying it's ready for release but clearly they've Live (& Max For Live) running on Linux right now and have to maintain it in parallel with Windows & macOS versions, so why not release it? I know literally many people who moved to Bitwig only because of Linux support (and then fell in love for other reasons...). Lack of plugin support I believe is clearly for Push stability and Intel i3 performance, not a technical hurdle that they can't cross.
I haven't read the whole thread, but it doesn't matter if Live runs on Linux. Live runs on Push 3, running on Linux. All the I/O drivers, latency of the audio card, Midi, CV, etc. This is not a generic Linux distro made to run on any generic PC and audio hardware. 100% control of their hardware, and support that could last 10 years.

antic604
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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by antic604 » Tue Jun 06, 2023 3:48 pm

Ndorar wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:27 pm
antic604 wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 10:18 am
jlgrimes wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 1:38 am
It increases the chance. But I'm thinking they still have hurdles.

Push 3 might be them developing for Linux.

So far no audio interface support and no VSTs, and probably other things. I'd say it's still a long ride.
Yeah, I'm not saying it's ready for release but clearly they've Live (& Max For Live) running on Linux right now and have to maintain it in parallel with Windows & macOS versions, so why not release it? I know literally many people who moved to Bitwig only because of Linux support (and then fell in love for other reasons...). Lack of plugin support I believe is clearly for Push stability and Intel i3 performance, not a technical hurdle that they can't cross.
I haven't read the whole thread, but it doesn't matter if Live runs on Linux. Live runs on Push 3, running on Linux. All the I/O drivers, latency of the audio card, Midi, CV, etc. This is not a generic Linux distro made to run on any generic PC and audio hardware. 100% control of their hardware, and support that could last 10 years.
Yes, that's why I've said it's not ready for release, but majority of work is already there.

I've no idea why you people are so against Live version natively running on Linux???

Ndorar
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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by Ndorar » Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:33 pm

antic604 wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 3:48 pm
Ndorar wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:27 pm
antic604 wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 10:18 am


Yeah, I'm not saying it's ready for release but clearly they've Live (& Max For Live) running on Linux right now and have to maintain it in parallel with Windows & macOS versions, so why not release it? I know literally many people who moved to Bitwig only because of Linux support (and then fell in love for other reasons...). Lack of plugin support I believe is clearly for Push stability and Intel i3 performance, not a technical hurdle that they can't cross.
I haven't read the whole thread, but it doesn't matter if Live runs on Linux. Live runs on Push 3, running on Linux. All the I/O drivers, latency of the audio card, Midi, CV, etc. This is not a generic Linux distro made to run on any generic PC and audio hardware. 100% control of their hardware, and support that could last 10 years.
Yes, that's why I've said it's not ready for release, but majority of work is already there.

I've no idea why you people are so against Live version natively running on Linux???
Live is already on Linux, but on Ableton's Linux, running on Push 3 exclusively. I don't know who "you people are so against Linux" are. I am not against the OS. I spent a lot of money on my RME. I have to wait for them to create their rock solid driver and Totalmix for Linux. Until then, no Linux for me.

Tarekith
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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by Tarekith » Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:25 pm

People keep assuming that the entire Live application is running inside Push 3 on Linux. Not sure why they would think that given how limited the functionality of Push 3 is compared to the entire Live Suite application.
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DunedinDragon
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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by DunedinDragon » Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:36 pm

antic604 wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 3:48 pm
Ndorar wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:27 pm
antic604 wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 10:18 am


Yeah, I'm not saying it's ready for release but clearly they've Live (& Max For Live) running on Linux right now and have to maintain it in parallel with Windows & macOS versions, so why not release it? I know literally many people who moved to Bitwig only because of Linux support (and then fell in love for other reasons...). Lack of plugin support I believe is clearly for Push stability and Intel i3 performance, not a technical hurdle that they can't cross.
I haven't read the whole thread, but it doesn't matter if Live runs on Linux. Live runs on Push 3, running on Linux. All the I/O drivers, latency of the audio card, Midi, CV, etc. This is not a generic Linux distro made to run on any generic PC and audio hardware. 100% control of their hardware, and support that could last 10 years.
Yes, that's why I've said it's not ready for release, but majority of work is already there.

I've no idea why you people are so against Live version natively running on Linux???
Because there's an enormous difference between running a version of Linux based Ableton that is customized to a specific piece of hardware in a controlled environment, and one that works across various general computer hardware platforms and is functionally capable of supporting all the various pieces of existing 3rd party hardware and software addons that are prevalent in the Ableton Live eco system. The testing and support costs alone would be staggering.

[jur]
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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by [jur] » Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:57 am

DunedinDragon wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:36 pm
antic604 wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 3:48 pm
Ndorar wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:27 pm

I haven't read the whole thread, but it doesn't matter if Live runs on Linux. Live runs on Push 3, running on Linux. All the I/O drivers, latency of the audio card, Midi, CV, etc. This is not a generic Linux distro made to run on any generic PC and audio hardware. 100% control of their hardware, and support that could last 10 years.
Yes, that's why I've said it's not ready for release, but majority of work is already there.

I've no idea why you people are so against Live version natively running on Linux???
Because there's an enormous difference between running a version of Linux based Ableton that is customized to a specific piece of hardware in a controlled environment, and one that works across various general computer hardware platforms and is functionally capable of supporting all the various pieces of existing 3rd party hardware and software addons that are prevalent in the Ableton Live eco system. The testing and support costs alone would be staggering.
Thanks for putting this simply 👍
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[jur]
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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by [jur] » Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:21 am

resequenced wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:40 pm
[jur] wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:25 pm
autodidactic wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:50 am
What development? The development is already done.
Are you a developer ? A developer at Ableton?
Don't you think there's reasons it's not available? Let's imagine Ableton is just all after making money, wouldn't they take this Linux opportunity to make more money if the development was "already done"?

It's tempting to imagine things are easily done when we don't really know what it implies.
Do you own a Push 3 standalone?
Sure, and for way longer than you would imagine.

All I'm saying is that, as someone who's not an IT, programmer, or even a doctor, I do my best to not (at least publicly!) ride uneducated conclusions on matters like how google search's algorithm works or how to treat someone suffering from a cancer.
And afaik Autodidactic isn't a dev @Ableton, so I feel like what seems to obvious from Autodidactic's own perspective, well...

That being said, I'm one of those who's been dreaming to one day being able to run Live and Max on Linux... not because I want to learn using Linux but just to stop giving money to apple, so I totally understand the desire and I'll celebrate with you the day it'll happen (if it does !)
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login
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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by login » Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:25 pm

[jur] wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:21 am
resequenced wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:40 pm
[jur] wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:25 pm

Are you a developer ? A developer at Ableton?
Don't you think there's reasons it's not available? Let's imagine Ableton is just all after making money, wouldn't they take this Linux opportunity to make more money if the development was "already done"?

It's tempting to imagine things are easily done when we don't really know what it implies.
Do you own a Push 3 standalone?
Sure, and for way longer than you would imagine.

All I'm saying is that, as someone who's not an IT, programmer, or even a doctor, I do my best to not (at least publicly!) ride uneducated conclusions on matters like how google search's algorithm works or how to treat someone suffering from a cancer.
And afaik Autodidactic isn't a dev @Ableton, so I feel like what seems to obvious from Autodidactic's own perspective, well...

That being said, I'm one of those who's been dreaming to one day being able to run Live and Max on Linux... not because I want to learn using Linux but just to stop giving money to apple, so I totally understand the desire and I'll celebrate with you the day it'll happen (if it does !)
You could go to windows now if you don't like apple.

[jur]
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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by [jur] » Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:47 pm

Login, I like using mac OS as that's by accident what I learned using a computer with. I think it's brilliant, but that's plain simple habits.
Every time I had to work on a windows system I was lost, and if I have to learn and adapt to something new at some point, I for sure would only accept to put this effort if it's for Linux.
Apple, Windows, same thing to me, politically, so since I'm too lazy and uninterested in computer geekeries, I'll keep on cowardly giving my money to the same church when required until a switch to Linux becomes possible.
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kitekrazy
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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by kitekrazy » Wed Jun 07, 2023 3:51 pm

[jur] wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:47 pm
Login, I like using mac OS as that's by accident what I learned using a computer with. I think it's brilliant, but that's plain simple habits.
Every time I had to work on a windows system I was lost, and if I have to learn and adapt to something new at some point, I for sure would only accept to put this effort if it's for Linux.
Apple, Windows, same thing to me, politically, so since I'm too lazy and uninterested in computer geekeries, I'll keep on cowardly giving my money to the same church when required until a switch to Linux becomes possible.
I'm glad you figured that out. The other issue is with Apple and Windows keeps developers busy with the (d)evolving OS. Linux users are going to have to wait in the pumpkin patch with Charlie Brown for the Great Pumpkin to arrive.

If I were into Linux I'd check out the DAWs that support it.

resequenced
Posts: 58
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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by resequenced » Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:32 pm

DunedinDragon wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:36 pm

Because there's an enormous difference between running a version of Linux based Ableton that is customized to a specific piece of hardware in a controlled environment, and one that works across various general computer hardware platforms and is functionally capable of supporting all the various pieces of existing 3rd party hardware and software addons that are prevalent in the Ableton Live eco system. The testing and support costs alone would be staggering.
You're right when it comes to some things and some other statements are inaccurate. Let's address them one by one, shall we?

I've just run Ableton Live for Windows on Linux via wine with 512 samples using a pair of USB headphones. Ableton certainly hasn't tested this configuration at all. They're also not supporting it at all. I'll write more about this at the end.


That so called customized version of Linux running on the Push 3 standalone has bugs due to the changes Ableton has made to it. It's using a custom version of the Linux kernel 5.15 which isn't up to date. It lacks the security updates and the bug fixes included in the latest patch version of kernel 5.15. It seems this custom OS isn't that good so far. There are people here who've had that custom OS break. It probably stopped booting. Do you know how a Linux system stops booting? It's usually file system corruption due to a kernel bug, due to a failed update or due to some bug in a script which wiped out something critical for the OS (such as a bootloader configuration file, the kernel or some module). I wouldn't praise Ableton's efforts there too much after seeing how many bugs they have. A regular and standard Linux OS running on some store bought PC is more reliable than their Push 3 standalone right now. I have a laptop which runs Linux. It never fails to boot. It never crashes. Do you know what's its secret? It doesn't use an older patch version of the LTS kernel with additional private patches on top. The custom patches and it being an older version are the two big issues with it.

The hardware support and the compatibility with hardware isn't Ableton's responsibility for the most part. The audio drivers come from the manufacturer of the hardware device, from Microsoft as class compliant USB devices or from Microsoft for generic audio devices (to some extent for HDA audio) on Windows. The same goes for macOS. There are hardware devices which just work without device specific drivers.

MIDI devices should also work just fine. That gives us two types of devices which would work on Linux: audio and midi. All of these have the necessary drivers in the kernel. The absence of a specific driver means that the device doesn't work if it's not compatible with generic devices.

Ableton isn't developing custom kernel drivers for all the devices and hardware it suppports. They have mappings, configuration, code, scripts and other things for controllers. They don't maintain the Linux kernel or drivers inside the Linux kernel. This means they don't have to do more work than just to test their application code with the hardware to make sure it handles it properly. The control surfaces are the perfect example because they're often just MIDI devices.

You're right that they'd have to provide support and help people. They don't have to carry the burden of developing and testing everything as you seem to be stating in your reply. A considerable part of that is handled through the development of the Linux kernel and many associated packages they just use. They just use standard interfaces and libraries to work with those features. Ableton Live doesn't need to be tested with a specific sound card to work with it. It's the same as with Windows and macOS. You have ASIO compatible audio devices on Windows. You have CoreAudio on macOS.

Doing this is possible. Bitwig is doing it. I've tested their DAW on Linux. It really works through their flatpak. I'm pretty sure these people haven't tested my actual configuration and my hardware. They've merely put together an x86_64 flatpak for their app. I install it on any distro with flatpak and pipewire/pulseaudio to use it with my hardware. You need to see it.


[jur] wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:21 am
Sure, and for way longer than you would imagine.

All I'm saying is that, as someone who's not an IT, programmer, or even a doctor, I do my best to not (at least publicly!) ride uneducated conclusions on matters like how google search's algorithm works or how to treat someone suffering from a cancer.
And afaik Autodidactic isn't a dev @Ableton, so I feel like what seems to obvious from Autodidactic's own perspective, well...

That being said, I'm one of those who's been dreaming to one day being able to run Live and Max on Linux... not because I want to learn using Linux but just to stop giving money to apple, so I totally understand the desire and I'll celebrate with you the day it'll happen (if it does !)
That moment may be closer than you think. You also don't need to do much work to get things going. Windows frequently requires fiddling more with drivers and settings just to function properly. Does anyone recall having to mess with power profiles on Windows 10 to not get pops and crackles? I do.

macOS has its own issues.
[jur] wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:47 pm
Login, I like using mac OS as that's by accident what I learned using a computer with. I think it's brilliant, but that's plain simple habits.
Every time I had to work on a windows system I was lost, and if I have to learn and adapt to something new at some point, I for sure would only accept to put this effort if it's for Linux.
Apple, Windows, same thing to me, politically, so since I'm too lazy and uninterested in computer geekeries, I'll keep on cowardly giving my money to the same church when required until a switch to Linux becomes possible.
It's good to read this. It's not the same, yet Proton (the custom Wine packaged by Valve) makes it possible to run old games which can't be run on Windows 10/11. Linux would provide compatibility for a longer time. It'd be the thing which helps people upgrade hardware when they want to do so.
kitekrazy wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 3:51 pm
[jur] wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:47 pm
Login, I like using mac OS as that's by accident what I learned using a computer with. I think it's brilliant, but that's plain simple habits.
Every time I had to work on a windows system I was lost, and if I have to learn and adapt to something new at some point, I for sure would only accept to put this effort if it's for Linux.
Apple, Windows, same thing to me, politically, so since I'm too lazy and uninterested in computer geekeries, I'll keep on cowardly giving my money to the same church when required until a switch to Linux becomes possible.
I'm glad you figured that out. The other issue is with Apple and Windows keeps developers busy with the (d)evolving OS. Linux users are going to have to wait in the pumpkin patch with Charlie Brown for the Great Pumpkin to arrive.

If I were into Linux I'd check out the DAWs that support it.
This was funny. I'm not saying I disagree. It made me laugh. It's a good idea to use what's there already as long as it has a Linux version.


I've discovered https://github.com/nine7nine/Wine-NSPA/issues/4, https://github.com/nine7nine/Wine-NSPA/wiki, https://github.com/nine7nine/Wine-NSPA and https://github.com/nine7nine/Linux-NSPA ... A-pkgbuild today.

The options.txt for Ableton Live found on this page https://github.com/nine7nine/Wine-NSPA/issues/4 have reduced the CPU usage of Ableton Live 11.2.11 when run under wine. Ableton's total CPU usage under wine was at about 270-300% when playing back the demo track. It was using about 2.7-3 cores. This is a reduction from the 450-480% it was previously using without these tweaks.

I didn't even have to try the custom version of wine (wine-NSPA repository), nor the realtime kernel packages (Linux-NSPA-pkgbuild repository), to get this performance.

Running Live under Wine isn't a far fetched idea. It works. It does have some issues which need to be addressed.

Perhaps the first step is to get Live 11.3 to install under wine. There were some people who didn't want to have the Push driver and the tray area icon on Windows anyway. Making the Push driver optional on Linux would be a first good step.

stotes
Posts: 1
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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by stotes » Sat Jul 15, 2023 12:15 am

For anyone who has ventured into the Live on Linux pathway and would like to Authorize their install Online and additionally link Cloud, I've written a small tutorial explaining how to:

https://gist.github.com/stotes/78ad62db ... 46ef8bd481

jlgrimes
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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by jlgrimes » Tue Jul 18, 2023 12:17 am

antic604 wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 8:24 pm
Now, since Push 3 standalone runs Live on some version of Linux, what are the chances the actual DAW also gets released on Linux?

In last couple of years audio environment for Linux has become very robust, with many DAWs (Reaper, Bitwig, Waveform, Ardour - to name the key players) and hundreds of VST plugins. Due to lower OS overhead it also runs better than Windows, probably on par with macOS. Also Linux distros have become much easier to install, use and maintain, especially those derived from Ubuntu (Elementary, Mint, Zorin, Pop!OS and so on); to the point that a moderately advanced Windows user should easily feel at home there.

I, for one, would love to use Live on Linux!

What are the community's thoughts on this?
I think one thing though is while Linux for face value might be less bloated as an OS, is it more optimized?

As bloated as Windows and Macs are, they have been doing audio for almost 30 years so I'm sure both platforms have alot of knowledge of how to optimize the OS and with multi core processors now being standard, if you have one Core dedicated to background OS tasks, how much overhead does that put on realtime audio?

What are the performance specs like for DAWS like Reaper, and Bitwig on Linux vs Windows? Is there that much difference?

Xarxaion
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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by Xarxaion » Wed Feb 21, 2024 6:11 pm

antic604 wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 8:24 pm
Now, since Push 3 standalone runs Live on some version of Linux, what are the chances the actual DAW also gets released on Linux?

In [the] last couple of years [the] audio environment for Linux has become very robust, with many DAWs (Reaper, Bitwig, Waveform, Ardour - to name the key players) and hundreds of VST plugins. Due to lower OS overhead it also runs better than Windows, probably on par with macOS. Also Linux distros have become much easier to install, use and maintain, especially those derived from Ubuntu (Elementary, Mint, Zorin, Pop!OS and so on); to the point that a moderately advanced Windows user should easily feel at home there.

I, for one, would love to use Live on Linux!
Ableton Live should be available on Linux platforms for every factual reason that Antic604 stated, plus a dozen other equally salient factors that support their assertions (like adding Davinci Resolve to the software list :D ). Compared to the two other mainstream OS offerings, the open source Linux environment is simply a superior, user empowering, developer encouraging, and creativity enabling platform at every level.

I've been running a mix of Linux and (*nix compatible) Mac systems for 2 decades now, and am in process of migrating toward ALATT (All Linux, All The Time) as tech life in Apple's walled garden (turned user abusive prison) has become untenable. For Linnstrument MPE support, I've invested time and money into Bitwig Studio as my commercial Linux DAW, and also use Reaper as an extremely capable and affordable, semi open cross platform option as well. Several months ago I licensed the Live 11 suite, primarily because it maintained legacy support for use with my posse of older Macs (but how long that support can continue is unknown...)

My ideal now is to make my performance tools as standalone as possible so I can concentrate on making music instead of dealing with the distractions of mouse pointers and computer screens. I've been dreaming of a owning a Push 3 since it's release, all the more so after seeing LooPop's review on uToob [link at end]. Hearing here that the Push 3 is (logically and unsurprisingly) powered by a Linux environment is huge motivation to move ahead with that hefty investment sooner rather than later. That "sooner" will become "Immediately!" should Ableton announce a Live release for Linux.

*Loopop Push 3 review: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr2ID82WncY >
[ PS: Anyone here interested in buying a Waldorf Irridium keyboard synth for a really nice price? (because premature choices happen) ]

dcjams
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Re: So... Live on Linux?

Post by dcjams » Wed Feb 21, 2024 10:05 pm

Why do non-programmers think they know how software development works? I wouldn’t tell an electrician how to wire a house or a farmer when to rotate the crops in his fields.

Any software project is always an enormous amount of work full stop end of story. Any software project is always, without exception, significantly underestimated.

A good portion of my day job is reminding people of this. People who don’t know what they’re talking about. The difference is they know they don’t know what they’re talking about which is why they pay me to talk about what I know about so that they don’t sound ignorant.

The software running on Push 3, whatever it is, lacks most of Live’s presentation layer for starters.

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