BUG: Push 3 Timing issues. ( even with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock)

Discuss Push with other users.
bodom76
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:28 am

Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by bodom76 » Fri Jun 09, 2023 4:44 pm

dest4b wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 4:30 pm
thats the point you wont recognize it.. until you do the test like i posted above. Because it seems you are not using a external Mixer. You use Pushs audio ins or Adat? correct?

Mysetup is not very special. and that Force and MPCs wont work as slave.. yes i know that. Because i have a Force. But compared to Push the Force is a perfect master for sendig Audio sync to ERM.

Please if you want to help.. just try it as i has writte obove. External mixer. and or Computer with audio interface.

This timing problem is on all midi and clock events. IF you use a EXTERNAL MIXER. And not Pushs audio in. Pushs audio out has a big atency regarding midi and Clock events
This is actually good to know since I don't use an external mixer. But when I did I had no issues. But I think I see what you are trying to do and its not what I want to do, which is record into the Push and use it's audio ins. I used to record my mixer back into ableton but I just used a mixer to route audio in and out of it, no midi sync.

So what you are trying to was covered in a similar manner in this video, I think. Its not your exact problem but may be interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R9abb0rtlA&t=259s

He is using an external mixer and gets really bad latency using audio outs, but I believe he explains how he works around it.

dest4b
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:56 am

Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by dest4b » Fri Jun 09, 2023 5:11 pm

If you look here it does not only affect midi clock or cv clock. seems to be a mor general problem.

Feel free to test. you must not use a mixer you can also use your computer with ableton even if it has only two audio inputs.

viewtopic.php?t=247517
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bodom76
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:28 am

Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by bodom76 » Fri Jun 09, 2023 5:18 pm

dest4b wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 5:11 pm
If you look here it does not only affect midi clock or cv clock. seems to be a mor general problem.

Feel free to test. you must not use a mixer you can also use your computer with ableton even if it has only two audio inputs.

viewtopic.php?t=247517
Latency on the first beat? That happens with every piece of gear ever even with an erm clock.

In should have my push by Monday. I will test it out. But I’m not sure the issue because the first beat is always off since the hardware being recorded is not synced usually until the first bar.

dest4b
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:56 am

Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by dest4b » Fri Jun 09, 2023 5:26 pm

no.. not only on the first bar.

its only for reproducing... what i meant with the "ONE" is:

Kick sequencer on drumcomputer and Pudh

OXXXOXXXOXXXOXXX
1234 1234 1234 1234

Recording this externally on a computer und jzst compare the both kicks on every 1

Nearly same with Midi Sync and Midi Notes to external Synthesizers
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bodom76
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:28 am

Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by bodom76 » Fri Jun 09, 2023 8:12 pm

dest4b wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 5:26 pm
no.. not only on the first bar.

its only for reproducing... what i meant with the "ONE" is:

Kick sequencer on drumcomputer and Pudh

OXXXOXXXOXXXOXXX
1234 1234 1234 1234

Recording this externally on a computer und jzst compare the both kicks on every 1

Nearly same with Midi Sync and Midi Notes to external Synthesizers
Ok great, ill check for this for sure. I always do with new gear anyway. Should have it Monday.

drxcm
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:30 am

Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by drxcm » Fri Jun 09, 2023 9:01 pm

Lets be clear - this is not an issue with ERM multiclock or any external gear attached to it, it is an issue with Push3 standalone.

The issue is that the audio outs and cv outs are not in sync and they should be perfectly in sync.

Essentially the CV outs are audio outputs anyway, just DC coupled. I’m guessing they are on the same converter as the audio outs (for engineering ease) in which case this is probably just a bug.

Maybe in was intentional to compensate for the latency using the audio inputs to record / monitor external gear that is being triggered. If that is so, we just need the option to switch that compensation off.

Midi sync is a totally separate thing and it is hardly a surprise things aren’t perfect there.

drxcm
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:30 am

Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by drxcm » Fri Jun 09, 2023 9:11 pm

bodom76 wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 5:18 pm
dest4b wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 5:11 pm
If you look here it does not only affect midi clock or cv clock. seems to be a mor general problem.

Feel free to test. you must not use a mixer you can also use your computer with ableton even if it has only two audio inputs.

viewtopic.php?t=247517
Latency on the first beat? That happens with every piece of gear ever even with an erm clock.

In should have my push by Monday. I will test it out. But I’m not sure the issue because the first beat is always off since the hardware being recorded is not synced usually until the first bar.
It does not affect only the first bar. Every clock tick occurs ahead of the audio out. This is regardless of what gear the Push3 is attached to. The ERM is not the issue.

dest4b
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:56 am

Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by dest4b » Fri Jun 09, 2023 9:18 pm

exact..
and i wrote all that to the support. but they dont understand me 8O

Screenshots .. projects.. descriptions. no serious reply.
And 95% of the rest of the internet was telling me that there is no problem

i wonder how that could pass thru the beta.
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http://www.soundcloud.com/dest4b

bodom76
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:28 am

Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by bodom76 » Fri Jun 09, 2023 10:05 pm

drxcm wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 9:11 pm
bodom76 wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 5:18 pm
dest4b wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 5:11 pm
If you look here it does not only affect midi clock or cv clock. seems to be a mor general problem.

Feel free to test. you must not use a mixer you can also use your computer with ableton even if it has only two audio inputs.

viewtopic.php?t=247517
Latency on the first beat? That happens with every piece of gear ever even with an erm clock.

In should have my push by Monday. I will test it out. But I’m not sure the issue because the first beat is always off since the hardware being recorded is not synced usually until the first bar.
It does not affect only the first bar. Every clock tick occurs ahead of the audio out. This is regardless of what gear the Push3 is attached to. The ERM is not the issue.

The CV/MIDI thing sucks but i personally never would try and sync up CV to match MIDI. MIDI is just looser by nature so it seems like hell to match those 2 anyway. I'd pick one or the other, and typically CV is optimal in my experience.

I don't think the ERM is the issue I am just saying it can add to the complications when troubleshooting with ableton support. So when I get my Push 3 I will send MIDI sync out and into my Tr8s and record a 4x4 kick and see how it looks.

I'd also like to try to send clock out over CV using the CV tools but I don't have a MIDI convertor.

kryptonitejesus
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:07 am

Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by kryptonitejesus » Fri Jun 09, 2023 11:55 pm

Anyone have any advice on how to even get the ERM Midiclock or Multiclock to send MIDI Sync or even Start/Stop to the Push 3 standalone?

Picked up a Midiclock+ earlier this week and I can't get the Ableton Push 3 to accept the Sync or Start/Stop at all. Nothing works, have already gone through all the settings and enabled Sync and Remote for MIDI Input and my 3.5 adapters are proper because they work fine for sending MIDI Out from the Push 3.

drxcm
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:30 am

Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by drxcm » Sat Jun 10, 2023 1:53 am

kryptonitejesus wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 11:55 pm
Anyone have any advice on how to even get the ERM Midiclock or Multiclock to send MIDI Sync or even Start/Stop to the Push 3 standalone?

Picked up a Midiclock+ earlier this week and I can't get the Ableton Push 3 to accept the Sync or Start/Stop at all. Nothing works, have already gone through all the settings and enabled Sync and Remote for MIDI Input and my 3.5 adapters are proper because they work fine for sending MIDI Out from the Push 3.
not currently possible. Midi clock in is not enabled in Push3 so it cant be a slave.

drxcm
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:30 am

Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by drxcm » Sat Jun 10, 2023 1:56 am

bodom76 wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 10:05 pm
drxcm wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 9:11 pm
bodom76 wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 5:18 pm


Latency on the first beat? That happens with every piece of gear ever even with an erm clock.

In should have my push by Monday. I will test it out. But I’m not sure the issue because the first beat is always off since the hardware being recorded is not synced usually until the first bar.
It does not affect only the first bar. Every clock tick occurs ahead of the audio out. This is regardless of what gear the Push3 is attached to. The ERM is not the issue.

The CV/MIDI thing sucks but i personally never would try and sync up CV to match MIDI. MIDI is just looser by nature so it seems like hell to match those 2 anyway. I'd pick one or the other, and typically CV is optimal in my experience.

I don't think the ERM is the issue I am just saying it can add to the complications when troubleshooting with ableton support. So when I get my Push 3 I will send MIDI sync out and into my Tr8s and record a 4x4 kick and see how it looks.

I'd also like to try to send clock out over CV using the CV tools but I don't have a MIDI convertor.
It's pretty easy to use CV / Midi and have then sync up with other hardware - not usually an issue.

Anyway have you even read this thread?
Two have us have already explained several times that sending clock out over CV with CV tools is not in time with the audio and it should be. You don't need Midi converter to test this.

bodom76
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:28 am

Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by bodom76 » Sat Jun 10, 2023 1:59 am

drxcm wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2023 1:56 am
bodom76 wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 10:05 pm
drxcm wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 9:11 pm


It does not affect only the first bar. Every clock tick occurs ahead of the audio out. This is regardless of what gear the Push3 is attached to. The ERM is not the issue.

The CV/MIDI thing sucks but i personally never would try and sync up CV to match MIDI. MIDI is just looser by nature so it seems like hell to match those 2 anyway. I'd pick one or the other, and typically CV is optimal in my experience.

I don't think the ERM is the issue I am just saying it can add to the complications when troubleshooting with ableton support. So when I get my Push 3 I will send MIDI sync out and into my Tr8s and record a 4x4 kick and see how it looks.

I'd also like to try to send clock out over CV using the CV tools but I don't have a MIDI convertor.
It's pretty easy to use CV / Midi and have then sync up with other hardware - not usually an issue.

Anyway have you even read this thread?
Two have us have already explained several times that sending clock out over CV with CV tools is not in time with the audio and it should be. You don't need Midi converter to test this.
Yeah I read the thread. I have my own use case to try. Relax.

And I understand it is easy to send MIDI or CV and have them sync with hardware. Thats common sense. But thats not what I said. So if you are going to be an ass about people reading, maybe start with worrying about your own self.

drxcm
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:30 am

Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by drxcm » Sat Jun 10, 2023 2:26 am

bodom76 wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2023 1:59 am
drxcm wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2023 1:56 am
bodom76 wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 10:05 pm



The CV/MIDI thing sucks but i personally never would try and sync up CV to match MIDI. MIDI is just looser by nature so it seems like hell to match those 2 anyway. I'd pick one or the other, and typically CV is optimal in my experience.

I don't think the ERM is the issue I am just saying it can add to the complications when troubleshooting with ableton support. So when I get my Push 3 I will send MIDI sync out and into my Tr8s and record a 4x4 kick and see how it looks.

I'd also like to try to send clock out over CV using the CV tools but I don't have a MIDI convertor.
It's pretty easy to use CV / Midi and have then sync up with other hardware - not usually an issue.

Anyway have you even read this thread?
Two have us have already explained several times that sending clock out over CV with CV tools is not in time with the audio and it should be. You don't need Midi converter to test this.
Yeah I read the thread. I have my own use case to try. Relax.

And I understand it is easy to send MIDI or CV and have them sync with hardware. Thats common sense. But thats not what I said. So if you are going to be an ass about people reading, maybe start with worrying about your own self.
I'm relaxed, and sorry to have offended.

I don't see how your "own use case" for sending CV clock out changes the fact that it isn't going to be in sync with the audio out though (which is what this thread is about). What are you going to test?

bodom76
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:28 am

Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by bodom76 » Sat Jun 10, 2023 2:58 am

drxcm wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2023 2:26 am
bodom76 wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2023 1:59 am
drxcm wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2023 1:56 am


It's pretty easy to use CV / Midi and have then sync up with other hardware - not usually an issue.

Anyway have you even read this thread?
Two have us have already explained several times that sending clock out over CV with CV tools is not in time with the audio and it should be. You don't need Midi converter to test this.
Yeah I read the thread. I have my own use case to try. Relax.

And I understand it is easy to send MIDI or CV and have them sync with hardware. Thats common sense. But thats not what I said. So if you are going to be an ass about people reading, maybe start with worrying about your own self.
I'm relaxed, and sorry to have offended.

I don't see how your "own use case" for sending CV clock out changes the fact that it isn't going to be in sync with the audio out though (which is what this thread is about). What are you going to test?

What were you trying to say about CV/MIDI being " hell to match " then? It's usually a non-issue. I need both, you can't do polyphonic stuff easily with CV. But analog clock is preferred to midi clock for sure as it's tighter when integrating with a DAW.
What I mean is sending both clocks MIDI and CV, which is what I thought was going on. Like I use 1 clock source. If it is CV I am going to send everything from that clock via. chain. Im not going to send MIDI to some things and CV to others simultaneously. CV is simply tighter and faster and less jittery than MIDI in general.It is a more accurate way to send sync as you said. Send synth playing an Arp MIDI sync and a modular drum machine CV and it's not going to be as tight.

I am going to test if this is an issue across all units, or what the deal is. I have not heard a lot of people say the sync is an issue yet besides here. LikeI said, super simple - MIDI clock into TR8s and record kicks. Then i'll test CV into a little modular drum and see how that works.

My use case is simple - can I get properly synced recordings back into the Push3? If so I am good to go, since that is my use case.

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