Push 3 audio interface - Give us Direct monitoring - Roundtrip latency is bad

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mrweasel
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Push 3 audio interface - Give us Direct monitoring - Roundtrip latency is bad

Post by mrweasel » Fri Jun 09, 2023 9:07 pm

It’s bad enough that the preamps are so weak for dynamic mics/guitars/bases etc even on “High” setting, but I must say that the lack of Direct monitoring when using the Push 3 soundcard (and the lack of track delay compensation in standalone mode) make it impossible to record clips that match the beat.

It feels like I’m back 20 years when interfaces didn’t have direct monitoring and latency made audio recording so challenging.
There s no need for that, when any audio interface over 100 euros (Arturia fuse, Audient id4, focusrite Scarlett all the way to highly specced cards) allow for direct monitoring and mixing between the latency free input signal with the main audio output of the clips playing.

Is this something Ableton would (and would be likely) to implement in a future firmware upgrade? I certainly hope that the hardware has that capability…
What do you think?

At is stands, Push3 for me is only usable as a standalone to sketch ideas using the midi mostly, otherwise it requires using an external mixer to monitor the signal latency free (no more standalone), or to connect a computer + an audio interface that allows direct monitoring (be it a small focusrite Scarlett or a Motu/Rme etc sound card)
This totally defeats the purpose of the standalone argument put forward by Ableton.

dest4b
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Re: Push 3 audio interface - Give us Direct monitoring - Roundtrip latency is bad

Post by dest4b » Fri Jun 09, 2023 9:24 pm

thats a good reason to take a external Mixer.

But then you run into other timing problems..
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[jur]
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Re: Push 3 audio interface - Give us Direct monitoring - Roundtrip latency is bad

Post by [jur] » Sat Jun 10, 2023 12:46 am

Most Live devices don't introduce any latency, except for a few ones like the Spectral ones, Compressor (which can be 0 latency) and Limiter.
Using 128smpl @48Khz here, and I'm definitely not bothered at all by the ~8ms total latency.
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dest4b
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Re: Push 3 audio interface - Give us Direct monitoring - Roundtrip latency is bad

Post by dest4b » Sat Jun 10, 2023 4:06 am

I think he is talking about external audio in and Monitoring.
some cases 8ms can be to long
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mrweasel
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Re: Push 3 audio interface - Give us Direct monitoring - Roundtrip latency is bad

Post by mrweasel » Sat Jun 10, 2023 6:20 am

[jur] wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2023 12:46 am
Most Live devices don't introduce any latency, except for a few ones like the Spectral ones, Compressor (which can be 0 latency) and Limiter.
Using 128smpl @48Khz here, and I'm definitely not bothered at all by the ~8ms total latency.
You re not getting the point.
Inputing audio playing an instrument such as an electric guitar or bass that you plug into the audio input 1 or 2 and therefore has to be monitored through push to hear what you are playing incurs latency, so when you record that into a clip, it sounds way off.

It can be tricky enough when not in standalone mode, using a laptop and an external audio interface with direct monitoring to get recordings that are bang on (setting monitoring Off on the recording does the trick usually), but with the push in standalone mode (and therefore built in soundcard), it’s a total mess

[jur]
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Re: Push 3 audio interface - Give us Direct monitoring - Roundtrip latency is bad

Post by [jur] » Sat Jun 10, 2023 9:59 am

I never use direct monitoring to record my guitars/bass simply because I'm most of the time using a virtual amp that I need to hear, so maybe I'm just used to it and somehow automatically corrects the timing without thinking about it.
Or maybe that's why my groove is bad :lol:

But I get your point. Unfortunately I've no idea how to help you.
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mrweasel
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Re: Push 3 audio interface - Give us Direct monitoring - Roundtrip latency is bad

Post by mrweasel » Sat Jun 10, 2023 11:06 am

Yes just look at the start of a recorded audio clip on low buffer even….
It’s going to be way off. Not usable in a pro or semi pro context and makes any production that way sound amateurish

For monitoring an incoming audio signal with effects on etc, you d either need an external device with effects, or to hook up a computer with an audio interface like the UAD Apollo Twin (which has built in DSP) for latency free monitoring with the UAD DSP fx chain, or if you want to use the Ableton effects you would require an interface with super low RTL (round trip latency) like an RME babyface/Ucx II/UFXIII and a computer

bodom76
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Re: Push 3 audio interface - Give us Direct monitoring - Roundtrip latency is bad

Post by bodom76 » Sat Jun 10, 2023 12:48 pm

mrweasel wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2023 6:20 am
[jur] wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2023 12:46 am
Most Live devices don't introduce any latency, except for a few ones like the Spectral ones, Compressor (which can be 0 latency) and Limiter.
Using 128smpl @48Khz here, and I'm definitely not bothered at all by the ~8ms total latency.
You re not getting the point.
Inputing audio playing an instrument such as an electric guitar or bass that you plug into the audio input 1 or 2 and therefore has to be monitored through push to hear what you are playing incurs latency, so when you record that into a clip, it sounds way off.

It can be tricky enough when not in standalone mode, using a laptop and an external audio interface with direct monitoring to get recordings that are bang on (setting monitoring Off on the recording does the trick usually), but with the push in standalone mode (and therefore built in soundcard), it’s a total mess
You can’t make 2 tracks on push? One to monitor and one to record in?

[jur]
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Re: Push 3 audio interface - Give us Direct monitoring - Roundtrip latency is bad

Post by [jur] » Sat Jun 10, 2023 1:02 pm

In any case, it's not different than in Live where it's always been recommended to use track monitoring set to IN if you want the most direct sound when recording.
But I understand, you're using direct monitoring from your sound card, and no P3 doesn't allow this, the soundcard here is "part" of Live in this case.

But just to put this in perspective, let's say you're playing with a drummers sitting 2 meters away from you: from this distance you're hearing the dummer with ~7ms of delay thanks to sound's relatively slow speed through air.
Afaik musicians have always worked with the constraint of speed of sound propagation, which in practice is a latency. I even heard that few of these musicians even successfully toured the world playing live music!
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spiritofeden
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Re: Push 3 audio interface - Give us Direct monitoring - Roundtrip latency is bad

Post by spiritofeden » Thu Jun 15, 2023 1:13 am

Is your unexpected latency due to the Push's interface or its CPU? In other words, do you have the same problem in controller mode using the Push for I/O?

I'm happy recording electric guitar with a modern laptop and a budget Focusrite interface, with an all-software chain, and no direct monitoring. Could I achieve the same with a laptop plus Push 3? The CPU will be upgradeable but the interface, AFAIK, won't.

vertgrall
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Re: Push 3 audio interface - Give us Direct monitoring - Roundtrip latency is bad

Post by vertgrall » Thu Jun 15, 2023 1:35 am

There must be some type of background overhead causing the latency. This shouldn't be an issue in anymore in 2023. I think the push 3 is trying to do too much.

sym3tri
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Re: Push 3 audio interface - Give us Direct monitoring - Roundtrip latency is bad

Post by sym3tri » Tue Dec 05, 2023 8:54 pm

+1 for direct monitoring.
Can’t believe this is not there.

braduro
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Re: Push 3 audio interface - Give us Direct monitoring - Roundtrip latency is bad

Post by braduro » Thu Dec 07, 2023 5:25 am

jur, I don't believe that is entirely analogous, although it does illustrate the bright side that something like 6ms is not going to throw off your timing. But with Direct Monitoring, it's not the drummer over there that you are referencing, it's the drummer here. The significance is that you are hearing yourself play when you are playing. Therefore with delay compensation on the playback side, I'm not hearing myself lag when I record, and the click lines up with my timing choices and motor skills as I record.

To further illustrate this, I loved this new Note app on the occasion when I was in a quiet enough spot to play it directly off the phone speakers, but as soon as I worked out beats with bluetooth ear buds, the live looping dimension is crippled, and I lost interest in the app. As the guide tracks become more complex or stacked, laying down parts will require a bigger buffer. Eventually, recording through playback is a loosing proposition. I am glad that it's a good interface and that its a fast processor, but Direct Monitoring is kind of non-negotiable.

Doesn't mean the interface wouldn't be enjoyable and appreciated for other purposes, and while we're at it, you might as well take advantage of built-in effects if there's no avoiding the latency.
Last edited by braduro on Fri Dec 08, 2023 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

braduro
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Re: Push 3 audio interface - Give us Direct monitoring - Roundtrip latency is bad

Post by braduro » Fri Dec 08, 2023 2:48 pm

You know, I wrote that and then realized you could probably find a good use for the ADAT, record from there while listening to yourself.
I have an art voice channel with ADAT, as well as a clarett octapre, but we could go through a list of smaller units that would serve this purpose, worthy of recording in the field.

In my case, this goes out to a booth with a soundcraft notepad, all so a soloist can hear themselves nested in the mix while still direct monitoring.

dougtheguy
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Re: Push 3 audio interface - Give us Direct monitoring - Roundtrip latency is bad

Post by dougtheguy » Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:15 am

I have found the round trip monitoring to be pretty good. Why?

1. Change the default audio setting from sample rate 44.1 to 48 and buffer from 128 to 64. This will speed things up a bit.
2. Use a high quality audio interface. I use a motu 828es. The built in ones are not that great. A lot of people are using the behringer cheapo $200 interface…I tried one and I recommend against it.
3. As others have said, don’t use high CPU plugins.

As a guitar player, I found the push SA to be really great with the setup I have. A few other things for guitar players. The Ableton amp plugins are not recommended for guitar players. Use a high end guitar processor like the SY-1000 or other.
Rant…The 64 key pad is the greatest thing since sliced bread enabling someone who will never be able to dedicate the time required for keyboards to being able to do amazing things on a push. I highly recommend the 64 key pad for guitarists. A year or two of light but consistent discipline will surprise you with what you can do and the skill doesn’t seem to be that perishable.
Good luck.

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