Few users including me repported problems with pdc since v5, more than 10 years ago now..
problem beeing main clock devices/vst receive is just not latency compensated.
this makes any synced device, being native/vst unusable with pdc.
could anyone with L12 test this simple setup/ex and repport if still flawed?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8dc4_YJCwg
if wanna already made .als to easy reproduce:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L9h0Xj ... drive_link
open, engage metnonome, listen, delete "100ms latency" rack, listen, that's it
is PDC fixed in 12?
Re: is PDC fixed in 12?
Same thing in L12.
But, PDC is here to make sure that all tracks stay aligned.
In your case, you're not introducing latency, but plain delay because of the lookahead. You'd need to play it along another track.
...... ok, scratch that, I'm doing some tests and my theory doesn't work.
It's way wonkier than I thought. I don't recall it acting like this.
Could you report to Support please?
But, PDC is here to make sure that all tracks stay aligned.
In your case, you're not introducing latency, but plain delay because of the lookahead. You'd need to play it along another track.
...... ok, scratch that, I'm doing some tests and my theory doesn't work.
It's way wonkier than I thought. I don't recall it acting like this.
Could you report to Support please?
Ableton Forum Moderator
Re: is PDC fixed in 12?
Ok, that's actually working as expected, you can add dozens more e.g Compressor to reach 1 seconds of latency, the PDC works perfectly... as long as Auto Pan is bypassed. There's something wrong with Auto Pan, that's where the PDC brakes.
I'd have to check as my memory is fading over the years, but I think that one of Live's PDC current limitation is with some time-based effects, which Auto Pan is.
Ableton Forum Moderator
Re: is PDC fixed in 12?
In any case, to answer your question regarding L12: nope. Exact same behaviour in L12.
Ableton Forum Moderator
Re: is PDC fixed in 12?
Ok thanks jur, i got my answer.
to clarify some part of PDC is working :
audio side of PDC is working, what is not working, is that while PDC has been delaying audio to keep stuff in sync audio wise,
it didn't compensate the clock devices receive, when it should have
so a relative drift occur between audio that is no more 'on grid', vs auto pan (or could be any synced vst, using transport) that keep beeing 'on grid'.
they are aware of the problem, and from a very long time.. i wished it was adressed as a serious issue
to clarify some part of PDC is working :
audio side of PDC is working, what is not working, is that while PDC has been delaying audio to keep stuff in sync audio wise,
it didn't compensate the clock devices receive, when it should have
so a relative drift occur between audio that is no more 'on grid', vs auto pan (or could be any synced vst, using transport) that keep beeing 'on grid'.
they are aware of the problem, and from a very long time.. i wished it was adressed as a serious issue
Re: is PDC fixed in 12?
Check this article:
"Built-in device modulation synced to the Live transport (i.e. synced to a specific beat-time position) is not compensated
Devices and plug-ins that depend on beat-time information such as song start, position in the song, or position within the bar, may be out of sync when latency-inducing plug-ins precede them in the chain (or in other chains or tracks in certain routing scenarios). These include certain devices with LFOs and devices that generate quantized patterns.
One example would be the Auto Filter LFO (in Sync mode), which might be slightly off depending on the position the device has in the effect chain. Specifically, if the Auto Filter is located after a number of devices introducing a large latency, the modulation might be offset to an earlier position with respect to the grid. This only happens with devices which sync to a specific song position."
With your example set, which has a tempo of 154, a 1/4 note = 2.57Hz
If you switch Auto Pan to Hz mode and set it to this value then it seems to work fine... well, only if you start the clip in sync with Auto Pan's phase, so maybe i'm just saying bullshit here.
In any case, any time based effect should be placed before latency-inducing devices... which is not always possible depending on the sound you're trying to achieve.
What's interesting with all of this, is that, surprisingly I can't even remember the last time I've been in a situation like this where PDC be a problem. Maybe it happens more often than I think, but the delay is so small I don't notice it, in which case this is not a problem.
Is this something that you come across often in real case situations? If yes, which ones? When using external gear?
"Built-in device modulation synced to the Live transport (i.e. synced to a specific beat-time position) is not compensated
Devices and plug-ins that depend on beat-time information such as song start, position in the song, or position within the bar, may be out of sync when latency-inducing plug-ins precede them in the chain (or in other chains or tracks in certain routing scenarios). These include certain devices with LFOs and devices that generate quantized patterns.
One example would be the Auto Filter LFO (in Sync mode), which might be slightly off depending on the position the device has in the effect chain. Specifically, if the Auto Filter is located after a number of devices introducing a large latency, the modulation might be offset to an earlier position with respect to the grid. This only happens with devices which sync to a specific song position."
With your example set, which has a tempo of 154, a 1/4 note = 2.57Hz
If you switch Auto Pan to Hz mode and set it to this value then it seems to work fine... well, only if you start the clip in sync with Auto Pan's phase, so maybe i'm just saying bullshit here.
In any case, any time based effect should be placed before latency-inducing devices... which is not always possible depending on the sound you're trying to achieve.
What's interesting with all of this, is that, surprisingly I can't even remember the last time I've been in a situation like this where PDC be a problem. Maybe it happens more often than I think, but the delay is so small I don't notice it, in which case this is not a problem.
Is this something that you come across often in real case situations? If yes, which ones? When using external gear?
Ableton Forum Moderator
Re: is PDC fixed in 12?
yeah that kinda is the problem, it def can , slowly , but surely.., sneakily create that, ahemm, unwanted 'groove" over time^^
and yes i came really often with this.
a pretty simple exemple: im building a synced scope vst called psyscope
(but all other vst scopes, ie osczillos megascope, occularscope ect) or any synced vst volume shaper, lfo tools and the like will be affected as well..)
if checking on the scope, everything is unsync as soon as any latency inducing plugin is used,
or if wanna use any of synced fx in cable guys shaper league, effectix, devious machines infiltaror and the likes (tons of them really)
,man is basically stuck using no latency vst processing at all prior theml, which is quite a worflow pain nowadays compared to other 'major' daws
and yes i came really often with this.
a pretty simple exemple: im building a synced scope vst called psyscope
(but all other vst scopes, ie osczillos megascope, occularscope ect) or any synced vst volume shaper, lfo tools and the like will be affected as well..)
if checking on the scope, everything is unsync as soon as any latency inducing plugin is used,
or if wanna use any of synced fx in cable guys shaper league, effectix, devious machines infiltaror and the likes (tons of them really)
,man is basically stuck using no latency vst processing at all prior theml, which is quite a worflow pain nowadays compared to other 'major' daws
Re: is PDC fixed in 12?
made video explaining problem better, and why it's a pain for all plugin developpers that use transport
and some still imo 'weird' workarounds, that could be still a bit less painfull workflow wise (here on my scope, but for any synced vst)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YORdCYgEk7A
and some still imo 'weird' workarounds, that could be still a bit less painfull workflow wise (here on my scope, but for any synced vst)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YORdCYgEk7A
Re: is PDC fixed in 12?
The question is why is Ableton unable to fix this issue. Surely they must know about it by now after all those years. Looking at how prompt is Reaper team with fixing anything possible and implementing new features this is something I don't understand when it comes to Ableton. Is their codebase so convoluted and old by now? Puzzling.
Re: is PDC fixed in 12?
Just adding my 2 cents here...
It's 2023 and video is not latency compensated in Ableton. Hard to me to understand how this is not considered a major issue to resolve.
It's 2023 and video is not latency compensated in Ableton. Hard to me to understand how this is not considered a major issue to resolve.
Re: is PDC fixed in 12?
Probably because Live isn't designed for Post production form the get go.
I would bet 90% of users don't use video in it, so low priority.
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Valiumdupeuple
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Re: is PDC fixed in 12?
Maybe, but if you read e.g Ableton Packs descriptions, you're almost sure to see things like "those sounds are also perfect for film music" etc...
Re: is PDC fixed in 12?
Ive posted this thread when it was Ableton live V5 ..in 2011....
12 years ago, yes 12.. should be renamed to "L12: years we don't care about tightness' of music
viewtopic.php?t=160107
years later v9.2 alas fixed modulations/automations sync but its still flawed on clock as of now 12 years later.
Re: is PDC fixed in 12?
Probably because Live isn't designed for Post production form the get go.
I would bet 90% of users don't use video in it, so low priority.
That's just a biased bet, the fact that you don't need it doesn't make it low priority.
In the manual , they mention sync to video in lots of different situations, actually a full chapter is dedicated to it. The DAW has the potential to become an amazing film scoring and audio post-production tool, it is just right around the corner.