Sample rate for live performance

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2pauluzz2
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Sample rate for live performance

Post by 2pauluzz2 » Tue Feb 13, 2024 1:33 pm

I know, this topic has been discussed to death.. and it feels like I've read every topic on the planet covering sample rate, but I haven't found a conclusive answer within the context of live performance.. so please bare with me :)

When I produce music I work with a 96000 sample rate. I do this because:

* Robert Henke and Dan Worrall mentioned that all kinds of distortion sounds much better at 96000.
* Robert Henke mentioned that Operator sounds much better at 96000 due to less aliasing, and Operator is my main sound source.
* Robert Henke mentioned that for extreme pitchshifting of audio, 96000 will keep much more details.

I've confirmed the above with tests.

Now for my live setup I work exclusively with rendered audio. There might be some pitching but nothing extreme.

My question is: will there be an audible difference if I load up my 96000 Hz stems in a 44100 project opposed to a 96000 Hz project?

(The reason I'm asking has mainly to do with the fact that I'm combining my Motu interface with an Allen & Heath PX5 DJ mixer, and I can get tighter synchronisation working at 44100. If that weren't an issues I'd just stick to 96000 Hz).

Angstrom
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Re: Sample rate for live performance

Post by Angstrom » Tue Feb 13, 2024 2:52 pm

Can you work the DJ mixer at 48khz?
48 is half 96. Although down sampling algos are pretty good it's an actual calculation to interpolate 96/44.1 (= 2.17687...)

96/48 = 2

Halving the sample rate always seems a better option to me.

However. If you can possibly run your live rig at 96 then why not do it. You will.have better latency, and any real time processing with non linearity (saturation, etc) will benefit.

Personally I do everything at 48. I'm a rebel.

[jur]
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Re: Sample rate for live performance

Post by [jur] » Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:06 pm

2pauluzz2 wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2024 1:33 pm
Now for my live setup I work exclusively with rendered audio.
Then you shouldn't worry about it really. The reasons you listed for working at 96K are valid, but since you're not doing any of those stuff in your live setup, those are pointless.
I'd go for 48Khz for the reason mentioned by Angstrom, but do some render tests, I'm pretty confident you won't hear any difference.
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2pauluzz2
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Re: Sample rate for live performance

Post by 2pauluzz2 » Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:09 pm

Great, that's very helpful and another issue solved. Thanks a lot guys!

Tarekith
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Re: Sample rate for live performance

Post by Tarekith » Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:36 pm

Keep in mind that if you're using 96k files in a 48k project that Ableton will be converting the sample rate on the fly. While this is a useful function, it will also use up more of your CPU power.

Calagan
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Re: Sample rate for live performance

Post by Calagan » Wed Feb 14, 2024 1:29 pm

Use whatever works. On stage, I would recommend the lightest option and (personally) would never go on stage with Live running at 96kHz : if you want stability (and stability is the most important thing on stage) you need a lot of processing headroom and 96kHz will not give you that...

I used often 44kHz and 48kHz and it's perfectly fine... Especially that on stage, it's not a "pro studio quality" experience, so even if higher sample rates sound theoretically better (and that is not completely the case, see below), nobody will hear...

It may happen that some audio interfaces sound better at some sample rates (I noticed, for exemple, that my Focusrite Clarett was sounding better at 48kHz than any other sample rate, be it 44khz or 88kHz), but it's very subtle and I didn't noticed that with other interfaces (like Motu ones).

By the way, as you mention Dan Worrall, he never said that using high sample rate was better - quite the contrary.
He is a fervent advocate of plugin oversampling instead of using very high samples rates for the whole session : because when running a full session at 96kHz or higher, what happens is the aliasing is just happening above Nyquist where it's impossible to hear. But it's still processed by plugins after that, it polluates the whole session and accumulate, until you start to hear it in the output with intermodulation distortion.
It's counter-intuitive, but higher sample rate can lead to more distortion...
And obviously, you burn a lot of CPU processing for many plugins that don't need high sample rates (like EQs, chorus, reverbs, delays, etc. etc.)

This is the reason why some clever plugins dev did create tools like Ultrasonic, that filter the ultrasonic part after each non linear processor.

Finally, there is Operator : you can't oversample it into Live (or with Metaplugin for exemple), and maybe it sounds better at high sample rate (it actually should sound better, I never tried). This would be the only reason to use high sample rate. But if your Live session is using only audio samples, and if your Operator parts are previously recorded, it doesn't make sense IMHO to use more than 48kHz... Run Operator at 96kHz and export at 44 or 48 Khz.

(It's also true that higher sample rate sounds better for extreme pitchshifting or audio manipulation. But if the processing is done previously, and you only use the exports, again no need to use 96kHz or higher).

Tarekith
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Re: Sample rate for live performance

Post by Tarekith » Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:17 pm

Good post Calagan, and thanks for clarifying that point about Dan’s higher sample rate thoughts. I was trying to find the video where he discusses that to share with the OP but was not having any luck.

Calagan
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Re: Sample rate for live performance

Post by Calagan » Wed Feb 14, 2024 5:28 pm

It's in this video
https://youtu.be/-jCwIsT0X8M

You couldn't find it because it's a Fabfilter video (made by Dan Worrall but published in the Fabfilter's channel).

Of course, it's a fabfilter's video, so it could be biased (in favor of "the amazing and near perfect Fabfilter oversampling algo").
But even if I'm not a mathematician, I'm convinced by the arguments, and I did read the same kind of things from authorities on the web (like Fabien from Tokyo Dawn Labs). Dan Worral can be biased, but it's never bullshit : he's among the 3 or 4 guys on the internet that provide top notch audio insight...

Tarekith
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Re: Sample rate for live performance

Post by Tarekith » Wed Feb 14, 2024 9:02 pm

Fabien and Dan definitely know their stuff, Dave from DMG too. I always listen when they share their ideas on this stuff :)

2pauluzz2
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Re: Sample rate for live performance

Post by 2pauluzz2 » Wed Feb 28, 2024 9:34 am

Thanks for the additional information! Very insightful! :D

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