Ableton arrangement window is a MESS

[TonyReed]

I think the arrange window is awful to edit in - here is what happens trying to edit a midi track:
First up: Arrange window has two markers - Song start marker ( green) and Arrange insert maker ( blue). They claim that the song will start from the insert marker that you can set by clicking anywhere. This is not true. The song starts from the green song start marker. This dam marker can only be moved by dragging the loop start brace ( Why IS that?)- even though it is turned off. The info lines says its behaviour can be turned off by the context menu. Cant find that option at all. And why is there two little pointless markers anyhow? But it gets even weirder when actually trying to edit this midi.
Click on the midi line to open midi editor. Press play. The song starts from the green marker - lets say bar3. If the insert marker is at bar 6 then the cursor doesnt scroll along the midi editor until arrange reaches 6 - BUT the midi editor window calls it BAR 1!!! WTF is that all about? What is Ableton doing changing my bar numbering?
BUT there is more still:
Go to midi editor and put in a loop brace. Hit the loop box. Then hit play. Stupid god dam program doesnt start form the beginning of the loop brace ( isnt this logical? - Surely it is). It still starts form the green marker. AND almost the worst thing of all - moving or clicking on the loop brace activates those dam WARPING MARKERS. I dont want them - I hate them. They can ruin everything. And they can not be turned off in midi. The preference options have this half arsed bollocks about long and short samples - meaningless. And doesnt seem to do anything.
The other weird thing this midi editor does is duplicate whats in the loop brace into the arrange window - ie lots of 1 bar loops over and over. This reverts once you de activate loop mode.
The audio editor also is useless. Its only for session view. Ableton really should do better here. They sell it as a complete DAW.
And while on a rave - And this the reason Im hog tied to this program is Push 2 - is GREAT. But it still doesnt work in Arrange - Dam it. It should by now.And as for that ridiculous orange button - geesus...

[TonyReed]

is there supposed to be some other way of working in arrange? AS far as I can tell - these two markers ( blue and green) along with the warp markers make the workflow pretty clumsy.
Doe anybody have the same experience? - appreciate any feedback.

[[jur]]

Midi clips don’t have warp markers, so I’m not sure what you’re referring to here.
Once you understand the difference between clips, Session, and the Arrangement timeline veery’s logical and imo very well thought out.

[Yearofthegoat]

I wish that changes made to clips in Session mode would update those used in the arrangement view.

I have to go in and manually replace the parts of the arrangement that have been updated - unless I've missed something?

[TonyReed]

Thanks for replying - Sorry to differ but the midi editor does have warp markers. If you select an area warp markers appear.

And yes changes to clips in either session view or the other way round dont transfer - you have to copy your clip across.
Editing audio in session view is a pain cause you have to copy it across to arrangement - and then back again. Its either that or you purchase a audio editor and ableton will open that up. Not satisfactory imo.

[perry4916]

looks like you are having sort of the same problem i have. .

viewtopic.php?t=249622

[jlgrimes]

Thanks for replying - Sorry to differ but the midi editor does have warp markers. If you select an area warp markers appear.

And yes changes to clips in either session view or the other way round dont transfer - you have to copy your clip across.
Editing audio in session view is a pain cause you have to copy it across to arrangement - and then back again. Its either that or you purchase a audio editor and ableton will open that up. Not satisfactory imo.

I think you are referring to midi stretch markers. i guess they are the equivalent of audio warp markers but works a bit differently. They are a bit weird if you don't know what they are for but they have their uses.

[TonyReed]

yeah thats correct. Its fine if thats what you want. But I dont want them - and they wont go away permanently.
I wish Ableton would not basically default to warping/midi stretch. Its fine if you want to drop in loops etc - but its not if you are playing stuff into the track(s).

[cids]

Hi TonyReed, although you might have valid points on the arrangement user experience, your tone of voice makes your feedback unreadable and is not really encouraging to provide any feedback on your post... the majority of people in this forum are not Ableton developers but Ableton users as yourself, please keep that in mind

[jonljacobi]

As a wise forum user once advised me... Stop fighting it and learn its ins and outs. It makes a lot more sense once you're used to it. Often clever. Also, remember that it's designed for live performance. There are modifier keys to play from where you left off, as well as from the insert marker.

Not that we don't all have our gripes...

[yur2die4]

I reviewed Live and played around a bit to get an idea of what you were talking about. The green and blue markers you mention have never been significant for me except as more of reference points. But I can see how their behavior can be extremely frustrating.

My only advice is to go to Preferences, Display & Input, in the Mouse and Pen Input spot. To have Permanent Scrub Areas turned in if it is not already.

Having that on makes it so that if you hover the cursor over the area just beneath the loop bracket, your cursor becomes a speaker icon and clicking that spot allows you to start playback from that spot.

As for the Bar count. This is more to do with the clips themselves being more of a ‘modular’ form. The clips do not reflect the master timeline. The bar count is only with respect to the clips themselves. I can see how this could be annoying if someone is doing more of a composition. I think it’s more a consequence of the open-ended format of Session View.

[Cypeace]

For the bar count in clips, the workaround for you could be to have clips start at the very beginning of the arrangement. The. The time would reflect global timeline.

[TonyReed]

Thankyou for your responses, and I do take the point and apologise about the tone of my message. You are quite correct.
I have tried to discus some of these points with Support - but the response is fairly short - and just read the manual.
I have been trying to use this program for years - and yes I know its called Live - but it sells itself as a complete DAW.
With an arrangement window. If there was just a decent audio editor and a means of defaulting to no warping and some decent clear playback control Id be happy with it. yes and Push working in there too. I have suggested this stuff - doesnt seem like a big deal - but I guess the LIVE thing trumps all that.
I have hoping that upgrades will address its arrange shortcomings - but after 12 it clearly isnt going down that path.
Thanks everyone.
Cheers

[jonljacobi]

Search "Ableton Live Tips" on Youtube. I learned quite a bit from those.

[contortrix]

You can disable automatic warping in the Preferences menu.

The session and arrangement clips are different by design. This allows you to do stuff like "perform into arrangement". Session is best for sketching out ideas and making loops, which you then drag into / perform into arrangement view to make a full song like a typical DAW. Changing this would break a lot of what makes Live useful.