Ableton 12.1.5 crashes every time I add an expression control

[crx091081gb]

Ableton 12.1.5 crashes a hell of a lot. I add an expression control it crashes, I add a VST it crashes. It then takes 3-5 attempts to reload the project without crashing and then sometimes it lets me carry on making music for a bit.

It also has issues with my MIDI hub that never existed under 11.

I really like live, I use it all the time for writing music and I'm not one of these hurrr durrr live is crashy piece of shit types but having used it since since Live 5 this is hands down the most unreliable phase in its development.

Is everyone else suffering or just me? I'm in Windows, 11 was grand mostly stable. 12 was ok, 12.1 just no.

[[jur]]

Appart from the Live update, did something recently change in your setup/system?

[crx091081gb]

Nope, just a standard windows 10 install that still seems to run 11 fine. RME Fireface with up to date drivers.

When I check the logs I see a lot of python script errors.

2025-01-29T21:05:33.565969: error: RemoteScriptError:
2025-01-29T21:05:33.565990: error: RemoteScriptError: Traceback (most recent call last):

2025-01-29T21:05:33.566000: error: RemoteScriptError:
2025-01-29T21:05:33.566013: error: RemoteScriptError: File "..\..\..\output\Live\win_64_static\Release\python-bundle\MIDI Remote Scripts\_MxDCore\MxDCore.py", line 1565, in install_observer_listener

Basically it runs fine for an hour or two, maybe I add a max4live device or move some clips or look at it the wrong way and it crashes. Sometimes it crashes when I save which is most annoying. Then it will take four or five goes to get live to re-open the project without crashing, eventually it always seems to. It basically only runs half the time.

I've been sending crash reports.

[crx091081gb]

It just crashed after I inserted an audio track and I lost half an hours work, the crash recovery didn't work and it reverted to an earlier version. I don't think I've ever found Live as frustrating as it is right now.

[crx091081gb]

It basically will randomly crash after I attempt any operation. Moving clips, inserting devices or tracks, saving all trigger crashes. Then after multiple attempts my project will eventually open and *most* but not all of the time be close to what it was like before it crashed. Then I get another period of it working till it crashes again. I send the crash reports. The whole experience is intensely frustrating and very much a new experience with live since 12.1.

Who do I escalate this to? Just email tech support and wait for response?

[[jur]]

Nope, just a standard windows 10 install that still seems to run 11 fine.

Do you mean you updated Windows recently?
You should try from an empty set, and then add the M4L devices and/or 3rd party plugins that are part of your usual template set or that you use all the time. Same for any midi controller, especially since we see "MIDI remote script" errors in your log.
You can report to Support

[crx091081gb]

I haven't updated from windows 10. I have automatic updates but they don't normally cause problems like this. Ableton Live 11 still works fine so I don't think it's my OS. I've tried removing and quarantining all my VSTs with no luck and the crashes occur regardless of whether I use M4L or not. The only controller I have is a MRCC midi hub.

[[jur]]

automatic updates but they don't normally cause problems like this. Ableton Live 11 still works fine so I don't think it's my OS.

- automatic updates usually not causing any problem doesn't make us sure it's not somehow involved in here.
- L11 working fine doesn't either mean a potential OS change is causing an issue with L12.

I'm not saying the OS update is the culprit here, just wondering.

[crx091081gb]

Ok so a conversation with tech support at ableton is now pointing towards ntdll.dll errors coming from max 4 live:

ntdll|RtlReAllocateHeap
MaxPlug|jbox_numoutlets
MaxPlug|object_obex_get

So far I've tried running max for live from max 8 rather than live's packaged one, updating windows, running a clean boot, doing an SFC Scan and DISM to make sure windows isn't corrupted, fully uninstalling and re-installing live 12.1 and verifying that all drivers are up to date. Still get crashes when I use max 4 live.

I'm going to persist with tech support and probably try contacting cycling74 (though aren't they effectively the same company now?) for their input. Posting here in case anyone else has had similar problems and knows a solution or has any suggestions as to what to try next (but please don't say fresh windows install because life is too short).

[Rivanni]

I add an expression control it crashes, I add a VST it crashes. It then takes 3-5 attempts to reload the project without crashing and then sometimes it lets me carry on making music for a bit.
It also has issues with my MIDI hub that never existed under 11.
It basically will randomly crash after I attempt any operation. Moving clips, inserting devices or tracks, saving all trigger crashes. Then after multiple attempts my project will eventually open and *most* but not all of the time be close to what it was like before it crashed. Then I get another period of it working till it crashes again. I send the crash reports. The whole experience is intensely frustrating and very much a new experience with live since 12.1.

After reading this, I can tell there is more to this than just Max for Live.
NTDLL is just catching the errors. Most of the time, drivers are the culprit, but you said you updated all. However, sometimes, the latest version of a driver can contain a bug.

It might also be a hardware issue.
Did you check your drive(s) and RAM for errors?
Also, check if your drive(s) and RAM are still seated properly, if possible with your PC.
Are the fans spinning? Do components feel hot? What are the CPU and other temperatures? Use this HW Monitor or similar tools. You can also use it to read the SMART values of your drive, giving you information about its health.

[crx091081gb]

Live runs fine and I can make changes to the project *providing* max for live devices aren't present in the set. This and the fact that no other software is crashing makes me think max for live. If it was drivers why is everything else stable? Just seems a bit niche and the only the that was updated before the crashes started was Live.

I've checked RAM and drive health SMART status both pass, hw monitor reads cpu at a cool 35 degrees C. The SFC scan passing makes me think it's not a drive reseating faulty cable situation, why else would the file hashes pass?

[Rivanni]

Live runs fine and I can make changes to the project *providing* max for live devices aren't present in the set.

Since you also mentioned some other actions, it was unclear that the crashes occurred only when Max devices were present, not in their absence.


A few things to try:

- Close Live and Max:
- Are there folders inside ..\Documents\Max 8\Max for Live Devices\? If so, can you take a screenshot? Then, move all contents to another location outside the Max 8 folder.

- Are there folders inside ..\Documents\Max 8\Packages\? If so, can you take a screenshot? Then, move all contents to another location.

- In Max, go to File > Show Package Manager. On top of the new window that opens, click on 'Remote packages' and select 'Installed Packages'. Do you see any warnings or errors?

- If the folders above weren’t empty, restart Live to check if things have improved now that they are empty.


A bit more rigorous:
- Close Live and Max:
- Delete everything in the folder ..\Documents\Max 8\ (or move it somewhere else).
- Delete the entire Cycling '74 folder in this location C:\Users\Your username\AppData\Roaming\Cycling '74 Note: This folder is hidden by default.
- Restart Live to see if things have improved.

If not, download and install Max 9.0.4 and use it in Live. It is a separate install, so it won't affect Live 8. Any improvements?

-------
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If you create an account, you can manage (including delete) the images you uploaded at any time.
Otherwise, you must copy and save the 'Removal link' if you wish to delete the image in the future.

You can also post the image to an alternative site or a cloud service like Dropbox, iCloud, OneDrive, etc., and share it from there.

[crx091081gb]

I've tried the Max 9 demo, used my Max 8 install and the bundled version. I've quarrantined all files in the folders outlined / max devices etc. I've wiped the preferences and the bug still persists. I've updated to Ableton 12.1.11 and I'm still levelling the blame at the expression control.

To put it in context even when I remove all other third party max for live devices the crashes persist. It has to be something wrong with Ableton's own content at this point.

Any other ideas?

[jbone1313]

Are you sure your graphics drivers are up to date? I had similar issues with M4L a long time ago, and updating my graphics drivers resolved it.

[crx091081gb]

Graphics card drivers are the latest available.

When it crashes I often find this in the log just before it happens. This occurs even when all my m4l devices are quarrantined.

2025-05-06T21:37:52.232425: error: Message from Max: mfl_device js: js: no function update [shift_vector]