Ableton Forum

Hi,

Tested 5.0.3 and saw that the same happens to 5.2b5 :

To find out I have installed MIDI-OX and MIDI-YOKE to capture informations sent by Live, and I have tested against my two sound modules.

In the Notes section of the clip you have Bank, Sub Bank, Program.
First of all Live sends LSB and MSB messages but sends Bank messages and Sub Bank messages that do not correspond to what is selected:

If you select Bank 81, Sub Bank 1, Program 42 Live sends Bank 80, Sub Bank 0, Program 41, as reported by Input Monitor on MIDI-OX.

MIDI-OX input monitor when Live sends CC:

103015 Yok -- 176 32 0 1 --- CC: Bank LSB
103015 Yok -- 176 0 80 1 --- CC: Bank MSB
103015 Yok -- 192 41 --- 1 --- PC: Viola

MIDI-OX input monitor when CubaseSX2/FL5 sends CC:

18322 Yok -- 176 0 81 1 --- CC: Bank MSB
18322 Yok -- 176 32 1 1 --- CC: Bank LSB
18322 Yok -- 192 41 --- 1 --- PC: Viola

do not get fooled by Viola here it's because GM Patch 42 is Viola...

This is my MIDI implementation table (Roland JV1010).

Bank Select | Program No | Group Patch No.
MSB | LSB | |
------+-----+------------+----------------------------------------
80 | 0 | 0 - 127 | User 1 - 128
81 | 0 | 0 - 127 | PR-A 1 - 128
81 | 1 | 0 - 127 | PR-B 1 - 128
81 | 2 | 0 - 127 | PR-C 1 - 128
81 | 3 | 0 - 127 | GM 1 - 128
81 | 4 | 0 - 127 | PR-E 1 - 128
84 | 0 | 0 - 127 | XP-A (Session) 1 - 128
84 | 1 | 0 - 126 | XP-A 129 - 255
84 | 2 | 0 - 127 | XP-B 1 - 128
84 | 3 | 0 - 126 | XP-B 129 - 255

It seems that to use my gear I have to select the desidered Bank+1, the desidered Sub Bank+1 and the correct Patch as reported on my patch list,
while Cubase and FL Studio allow me to select the correct Bank, Sub Bank, Program number without any math gimmick

MIDI Program Number is 0 based as opposed to Patch number that is 1 based, Bank number should be sent without changes and Sub Bank should be allowed to send a 0 (zero) without changes.

makes sense ?
Hope it helps.

- regards
- Pasha

pls. fix this! It does not seem too difficult...

Hi Pasha,

ok, we will check this.

regards,
/Alex

Alex wrote:Hi Pasha,

ok, we will check this.

regards,
/Alex

Thank Alex.
I upgraded to full live just 3 days ago. I still cannot use sampletank so fall back on my external gear it's a must. Thanks for taking care.
Dom was already working on this as a bug on 5.0.3 I have tried to be more specific and I have found out what's above and I have alerted him. Maybe too many people control the multitimbral parts in the VSTi so this feature is less used, otherwise I cannot understand why nodody noticed it before.

regards,
Pasha

Thanks Pasha

I forgot that midi messages were somtimes off by one...

Now I can use live exclusively for midi and audio even though it would be nice to have volume and panning controls for midi data.

Rick Chaff

Hi Pasha,

You are right: When selecting program/bank or sub-bank no 1 in Live, this will send out MIDI messages with program/bank or sub-bank no 0, when looking at the raw MIDI data.

Why? We choosed to simply avoid counting from Zero in Live. Most Synths do not count from Zero as well, so if you choose "program 1" in Live, you will also see "program 1" on most synths displays. Cubase seems to behave different here, but this is not really a reason why we should change this.

Eduard wrote:Hi Pasha,

You are right: When selecting program/bank or sub-bank no 1 in Live, this will send out MIDI messages with program/bank or sub-bank no 0, when looking at the raw MIDI data.

Why? We choosed to simply avoid counting from Zero in Live. Most Synths do not count from Zero as well, so if you choose "program 1" in Live, you will also see "program 1" on most synths displays. Cubase seems to behave different here, but this is not really a reason why we should change this.

bank
Hi Eduard,

I think that you did not get the main point here. If you do not want zero based stuff, ok for the program. But there's a difference between MIDI program number from 0 to 127, and Bank/Sub Bank number.
If I select bank 80 Live sends 79. If I select sub Bank 1, Live sends 0.
If you do not change this, I'm afraid you cannot call Live GUI consistent and MIDI compliant. No other sequencer (hardware or software sends offsetted bank/subbank numbers.) I do not want Live to mimick Cubase, because otherwise I would not choose Live over Cubase, but I'm talking about a more consistent approach. If I have to drive external midi expanders, I need to be sure that what I send to the unit is what I see in Live.
Take FL5 if you do not like Cubase, it behaves consistently, like I expect. It's Live behaving different. Got the point? Otherwise Live is not suitable for MIDI composition and External gear, I do not see any advantage in not fixing this.