(ot) (political) letter from Iran to the US

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smutek
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(ot) (political) letter from Iran to the US

Post by smutek » Wed May 10, 2006 1:26 am

If anyone was wondering what was in the letter from the Iranian president to the American president, below is the full text, and a link to the source.

Full text letter of Islamic Republic Of Iran President to American President
-------------------------------------
??? ???? ?????? ??????

5/8/2006

Mr. George Bush,
President of the United States of America

For sometime now I have been thinking, how one can justify the undeniable contradictions that exist in the international arena -- which are being constantly debated, especially in political forums and amongst university students. Many questions remain unanswered. These have prompted me to discuss some of the contradictions and questions, in the hopes that it might bring about an opportunity to redress them.
Can one be a follower of Jesus Christ (PBUH), the great Messenger of God,
Feel obliged to respect human rights,
Present liberalism as a civilization model,
Announce one’s opposition to the proliferation of nuclear weapons and WMDs,
Make “War on Terror” his slogan,And finally,
Work towards the establishment of a unified international community – a community which Christ and the virtuous of the Earth will one day govern,
But at the same time,
Have countries attacked. The lives, reputations and possessions of people destroyed and on the slight chance of the presence of a few criminals in a village, city, or convoy for example, the entire village, city or convoy set ablaze.
Or because of the possibility of the existence of WMDs in one country, it is occupied, around one hundred thousand people killed, its water sources, agriculture and industry destroyed, close to 180,000 foreign troops put on the ground, sanctity of private homes of citizens broken, and the country pushed back perhaps fifty years. At what price? Hundreds of billions of dollars spent from the treasury of one country and certain other countries and tens of thousands of young men and women – as occupation troops – put in harms way, taken away from family and loved ones, their hands stained with the blood of others, subjected to so much psychological pressure that everyday some commit suicide and those returning home suffer depression, become sickly and grapple with all sorts of ailments; while some are killed and their bodies handed to their families.
On the pretext of the existence of WMDs, this great tragedy came to engulf both the peoples of the occupied and the occupying country. Later it was revealed that no WMDs existed to begin with.
Of course Saddam was a murderous dictator. But the war was not waged to topple him, the announced goal of the war was to find and destroy weapons of mass destruction. He was toppled along the way towards another goal; nevertheless the people of the region are happy about it. I point out that throughout the many years of the imposed war on Iran Saddam was supported by the West.

Mr. President,

You might know that I am a teacher. My students ask me how can these actions be reconciled with the values outlined at the beginning of this letter and duty to the tradition of Jesus Christ (PBUH), the Messenger of peace and forgiveness?
There are prisoners in Guantanamo Bay that have not been tried, have no legal representation, their families cannot see them and are obviously kept in a strange land outside their own country. There is no international monitoring of their conditions and fate. No one knows whether they are prisoners, POWs, accused or criminals.
European investigators have confirmed the existence of secret prisons in Europe too. I could not correlate the abduction of a person, and him or her being kept in secret prisons, with the provisions of any judicial system. For that matter, I fail to understand how such actions correspond to the values outlined in the beginning of this letter, i.e. the teachings of Jesus Christ (PBUH), human rights and liberal values.
Young people, university students, and ordinary people have many questions about the phenomenon of Israel. I am sure you are familiar with some of them.
Throughout history many countries have been occupied, but I think the establishment of a new country with a new people, is a new phenomenon that is exclusive to our times.
Students are saying that sixty years ago such a country did not exist. They show old documents and globes and say try as we have, we have not been able to find a country named Israel.
I tell them to study the history of WWI and II. One of my students told me that during WWII, which more than tens of millions of people perished in, news about the war, was quickly disseminated by the warring parties. Each touted their victories and the most recent battlefront defeat of the other party. After the war they claimed that six million Jews had been killed. Six million people that were surely related to at least two million families.
Again let us assume that these events are true. Does that logically translate into the establishment of the state of Israel in the Middle East or support for such a state? How can this phenomenon be rationalized or explained?

Mr. President,

I am sure you know how – and at what cost – Israel was established:
-Many thousands were killed in the process.
-Millions of indigenous people were made refugees.
-Hundreds of thousands of hectares of farmland, olive plantations, townsand villages were destroyed.
This tragedy is not exclusive to the time of establishment; unfortunately it has been ongoing for sixty years now.
A regime has been established which does not show mercy even to kids, destroys houses while the occupants are still in them, announces beforehand its list and plans to assassinate Palestinian figures, and keeps thousands of Palestinians in prison. Such a phenomenon is unique – or at the very least extremely rare – in recent memory.
Another big question asked by the people is “why is this regime being supported?”
Is support for this regime in line with the teachings of Jesus Christ (PBUH) or Moses (PBUH) or liberal values?
Or are we to understand that allowing the original inhabitants of these lands – inside and outside Palestine -- whether they are Christian, Moslem or Jew, to determine their fate, runs contrary to principles of democracy, human rights and the teachings of prophets? If not, why is there so much opposition to a referendum?
The newly elected Palestinian administration recently took office. All independent observes have confirmed that this government represents the electorate. Unbelievingly, they have put the elected government under pressure and have advised it to recognize the Israeli regime, abandon the struggle and follow the programs of the previous government.
If the current Palestinian government had run on the above platform, would the Palestinian people have voted for it? Again, can such position taken in opposition to the Palestinian government be reconciled with the values outlined earlier? The people are also asking “why are all UNSC resolutions in condemnation of Israel vetoed?”

Mr. President,

As you are well aware, I live amongst the people and am in constant contact with them -- many people from around the Middle East manage to contact me as well. They do not have faith in these dubious policies either. There is evidence that the people of the region are becoming increasingly angry with such policies.
It is not my intention to pose too many questions, but I need to refer to other points as well.
Why is it that any technological and scientific achievement reached in the Middle East region is translated into and portrayed as a threat to the Zionist regime? Is not scientific R&D one of the basic rights of nations?
You are familiar with history. Aside from the Middle Ages, in what other point in history has scientific and technical progress been a crime? Can the possibility of scientific achievements being utilized for military purposes be reason enough to oppose science and technology altogether? If such a supposition is true, then all scientific disciplines, including physics, chemistry, mathematics, medicine, engineering, etc. must be opposed.
Lies were told in the Iraqi matter. What was the result? I have no doubt that telling lies is reprehensible in any culture, and you do not like to be lied to.

Mr. President,

Don’t Latin Americans have the right to ask why their elected governments are being opposed and coup leaders supported? Or, Why must they constantly be threatened and live in fear?
The people of Africa are hardworking, creative and talented. They can play an important and valuable role in providing for the needs of humanity and contribute to its material and spiritual progress. Poverty and hardship in large parts of Africa are preventing this from happening. Don’t they have the right to ask why their enormous wealth – including minerals – is being looted, despite the fact that they need it more than others?
Again, do such actions correspond to the teachings Of Christ and the tenets of human rights?
The brave and faithful people of Iran too have many questions and grievances, including: the coup d’etat of 1953 and the subsequent toppling of the legal government of the day, opposition to the Islamic revolution, transformation of an Embassy into a headquarters supporting the activities of those opposing the Islamic Republic (many thousands of pages of documents corroborate this claim), support for Saddam in the war waged against Iran, the shooting down of the Iranian passenger plane, freezing the assets of the Iranian nation, increasing threats, anger and displeasure vis-à-vis the scientific and nuclear progress of the Iranian nation (just when all Iranians are jubilant and celebrating their country’s progress), and many other grievances that I will not refer to in this letter.

Mr. President,

September Eleven was a horrendous incident. The killing of innocents is deplorable and appalling in any part of the world. Our government immediately declared its disgust with the perpetrators and offered its condolences to the bereaved and expressed its sympathies.
All governments have a duty to protect the lives, property and good standing of their citizens. Reportedly your government employs extensive security, protection and intelligence systems – and even hunts its opponents abroad. September eleven was not a simple operation. Could it be planned and executed without coordination with intelligence and security services – or their extensive infiltration? Of course this is just an educated guess. Why have the various aspects of the attacks been kept secret? Why are we not told who botched their responsibilities? And, why aren’t those responsible and the guilty parties identified and put on trial?
All governments have a duty to provide security and peace of mind for their citizens. For some years now, the people of your country and neighbors of world trouble spots do not have peace of mind. After 9.11, instead of healing and tending to the emotional wounds of the survivors and the American people -- who had been immensely traumatized by the attacks -- some Western media only intensified the climate of fear and insecurity – some constantly talked about the possibility of new terror attacks and kept the people in fear. Is that service to the American people? Is it possible to calculate the damages incurred from fear and panic?
American citizens lived in constant fear of fresh attacks that could come at any moment and in any place. They felt insecure in the streets, in their place of work and at home. Who would be happy with this situation? Why was the media, instead of conveying a feeling of security and providing peace of mind, giving rise to a feeling of insecurity?
Some believe that the hype paved the way -- and was the justification --for an attack on Afghanistan. Again I need to refer to the role of media.
In media charters, correct dissemination of information and honest reporting of a story are established tenets. I express my deep regret about the disregard shown by certain Western media for these principles. The main pretext for an attack on Iraq was the existence of WMDs. This was repeated incessantly -- for the public to finally believe -- and the ground set for an attack on Iraq.
Will the truth not be lost in a contrived and deceptive climate?
Again, if the truth is allowed to be lost, how can that be reconciled with the earlier mentioned values?
Is the truth known to the Almighty lost as well?

Mr. President,

In countries around the world, citizens provide for the expenses of governments so that their governments in turn are able to serve them.
The question here is “what has the hundreds of billions of dollars, spent every year to pay for the Iraqi campaign, produced for the citizens?”
As Your Excellency is aware, in some states of your country, people are living in poverty. Many thousands are homeless and unemployment is a huge problem. Of course these problems exist – to a larger or lesser extent -- in other countries as well. With these conditions in mind, can the gargantuan expenses of the campaign – paid from the public treasury – be explained and be consistent with the aforementioned principles?
What has been said, are some of the grievances of the people around the world, in our region and in your country. But my main contention – which I am hoping you will agree to some of it – is:
Those in power have a specific time in office and do not rule indefinitely, but their names will be recorded in history and will be constantly judged in the immediate and distant futures.
The people will scrutinize our presidencies.
Did we mange to bring peace, security and prosperity for the people or insecurity and unemployment?
Did we intend to establish justice or just supported especial interest groups, and by forcing many people to live in poverty and hardship, made a few people rich and powerful -- thus trading the approval of the people and the Almighty with theirs’?
Did we defend the rights of the underprivileged or ignore them?
Did we defend the rights of all people around the world or imposed wars on them, interfered illegally in their affairs, established hellish prisons and incarcerated some of them?
Did we bring the world peace and security or raised the specter of intimidation and threats?
Did we tell the truth to our nation and others around the world or presented an inverted version of it?
Were we on the side of people or the occupiers and oppressors?
Did our administrations set out to promote rational behavior, logic, ethics, peace, fulfilling obligations, justice, service to the people, prosperity, progress and respect for human dignity or the force of guns,
Intimidation, insecurity, disregard for the people, delaying the progress and excellence of other nations, and trample on people’s rights?
And finally, they will judge us on whether we remained true to our oath of office – to serve the people, which is our main task, and the traditions of the prophets -- or not?

Mr. President,

How much longer can the world tolerate this situation?
Where will this trend lead the world to?
How long must the people of the world pay for the incorrect decisions of some rulers?
How much longer will the specter of insecurity – raised from the stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction -- hunt the people of the world?
How much longer will the blood of the innocent men, women and children be spilled on the streets, and people’s houses destroyed over their heads?
Are you pleased with the current condition of the world?
Do you think present policies can continue?
If billions of dollars spent on security, military campaigns and troop movement were instead spent on investment and assistance for poor countries, promotion of health, combating different diseases, education and improvement of mental and physical fitness, assistance to the victims of natural disasters, creation of employment opportunities and production, development projects and poverty alleviation, establishment of peace, mediation between disputing states, and extinguishing the flames of racial, ethnic and other conflicts, were would the world be today? Would not your government and people be justifiably proud?
Would not your administration’s political and economic standing have been stronger?
And I am most sorry to say, would there have been an ever increasing global hatred of the American government?
Mr. President, it is not my intention to distress anyone.
If Prophet Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Ishmael, Joseph, or Jesus Christ (PBUH) were with us today, how would they have judged such behavior? Will we be given a role to play in the promised world, where justice will become universal and Jesus Christ (PBUH) will be present? Will they even accept us?
My basic question is this: Is there no better way to interact with the rest of the world? Today there are hundreds of millions of Christians, hundreds of millions of Moslems and millions of people who follow the teachings of Moses (PBUH). All divine religions share and respect one word and that is “monotheism” or belief in a single God and no other in the world.
The Holy Koran stresses this common word and calls on all followers of divine religions and says: [3.64] Say: O followers of the Book! come to an equitable proposition between us and you that we shall not serve any but Allah and (that) we shall not associate aught with Him, and (that) some of us shall not take others for lords besides Allah; but if they turn back, then say: Bear witness that we are Muslims. (The Family of Imran)

Mr. President,

According to divine verses, we have all been called upon to worship one God and follow the teachings of divine Prophets.

“To worship a God which is above all powers in the world and can do all He pleases.” “the Lord which knows that which is hidden and visible, the past and the future, knows what goes on in the Hearts of His servants and records their deeds.”

“The Lord who is the possessor of the heavens and the earth and all universe is His court” “planning for the universe is done by His hands, and gives His servants the glad tidings of mercy and forgiveness of sins” “He is the companion of the oppressed and the enemy of oppressors” “He is the Compassionate, the Merciful” “He is the recourse of the faithful and guides them towards the light from darkness” “He is witness to the actions of His servants” “He calls on servants to be faithful and do good deeds, and asks them to stay on the path of righteousness and remain steadfast” “Calls on servants to heed His prophets and He is a witness to their deeds” “A bad ending belongs only to those who have chosen the life of this world and disobey Him and oppress His servants” and “A good end and eternal paradise belong to those servants who fear His majesty and do not follow their lascivious selves.”

We believe a return to the teachings of the divine prophets is the only road leading to salvation. I have been told that Your Excellency follows the teachings of Jesus (PBUH) and believes in the divine promise of the rule of the righteous on Earth.
We also believe that Jesus Christ (PBUH) was one of the great prophets of the Almighty. He has been repeatedly praised in the Koran. Jesus (PBUH) has been quoted in Koran as well: [19.36] And surely Allah is my Lord and your Lord, therefore serve Him; this is the right path. Marium
Service to and obedience of the Almighty is the credo of all divine messengers.
The God of all people in Europe, Asia, Africa, America, the Pacific and the rest of the world is one. He is the Almighty who wants to guide and give dignity to all His servants. He has given greatness to Humans.

We again read in the Holy Book: “The Almighty God sent His prophets with miracles and clear signs to guide the people and show them divine signs and purify them from sins and pollutions. And He sent the Book and the balance so that the people display justice and avoid the rebellious”.

All of the above verses can be seen, one way or the other, in the Good Book as well.

Divine prophets have promised:

The day will come when all humans will congregate before the court of the Almighty, so that their deeds are examined. The good will be directed towards Haven and evildoers will meet divine retribution. I trust both of us believe in such a day, but it will not be easy to calculate the actions of rulers, because we must be answerable to our nations and all others whose lives have been directly or indirectly affected by our actions.

All prophets, speak of peace and tranquility for man -- based on monotheism, justice and respect for human dignity.

Do you not think that if all of us come to believe in and abide by these principles, that is, monotheism, worship of God, justice, respect for the dignity of man, belief in the Last Day, we can overcome the present problems of the world -- that are the result of disobedience to the Almighty and the teachings of prophets – and improve our performance?
Do you not think that belief in these principles promotes and guarantees peace, friendship and justice?
Do you not think that the aforementioned written or unwritten principles are universally respected?
Will you not accept this invitation? That is, a genuine return to the teachings of prophets, to monotheism and justice, to preserve human dignity and obedience to the Almighty and His prophets?

Mr. President,

History tells us that repressive and cruel governments do not survive. God has entrusted the fate of men to them. The Almighty has not left the universe and humanity to their own devices. Many things have happened contrary to the wishes and plans of governments. These tell us that there is a higher power at work and all events are determined by Him.
Can one deny the signs of change in the world today?
Is the situation of the world today comparable to that of ten years ago? Changes happen fast and come at a furious pace.
The people of the world are not happy with the status quo and pay little heed to the promises and comments made by a number of influential world leaders. Many people around the world feel insecure and oppose the spreading of insecurity and war and do not approve of and accept dubious policies.
The people are protesting the increasing gap between the haves and the have-nots and the rich and poor countries.
The people are disgusted with increasing corruption.
The people of many countries are angry about the attacks on their cultural foundations and the disintegration of families. They are equally dismayed with the fading of care and compassion. The people of the world have no faith in international organizations, because their rights are not advocated by these organizations.
Liberalism and Western style democracy have not been able to help realize the ideals of humanity. Today these two concepts have failed. Those with insight can already hear the sounds of the shattering and fall of the ideology and thoughts of the Liberal democratic systems.
We increasingly see that people around the world are flocking towards a main focal point -- that is the Almighty God. Undoubtedly through faith in God and the teachings of the prophets, the people will conquer their problems. My question for you is: “Do you not want to join them?”

Mr. President,

Whether we like it or not, the world is gravitating towards faith in the
Almighty and justice and the will of God will prevail over all things.

Vasalam Ala Man Ataba’al hoda
Mahmood Ahmadi-Nejad
President of the Islamic Republic of Iran

http://www.president.ir/eng/ahmadinejad ... x-e.htm#b3

Spikee
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Post by Spikee » Wed May 10, 2006 5:48 am

Whereas I feel that Iran is a country that is hopelessly locked in tradition and a religion that encourages, sometimes inadvertantly and sometimes not, such things as the subjugation of women and grossly unforgiving tactics against lawbreakers and persons of dissent...

Sorry, I had to end that sentence right there because it went on forever.

I quite frankly don't disagree with too much in this letter. Actually, after reading it again, it's pretty spot-on. It calls out the hypocrisy that occurs every time our government invokes the name of Jesus Christ when it sins and kills in wanton fashion; it properly addresses Iran's right and need for R&D (as if they would actually building nukes after Dubya's "You're either with us or against us" promise, except to defend themselves what increasingly looks like selective genocide for means of profit), it succinctly calls out the massive corruption of 9/11 and the aftermath (including insinuating government involvement which I agree happened at some level), the negative and toxic effects of the media...

There's a whole shitload of unrest and terrible things happening in Rwanda and other African countries -- funny that there's not too much oil there... And how dare us talk about spreading democracy and yet oppose it in Palestine. You know, even if Hamas was a bad choice you would assume that had Palestine had any chance of affluence whatsoever (because they sure as hell were never given any opportunities), things would be tremendously different.

Sadly, all I see in this letter is an epitaph. Even sadder is that I hope it's not America's eventual epitaph when I know that Iraq didn't deserve to be blown off of the map and neither does Iran. They're both casualties of greed in my eyes... and it's just scary to know that gluttony kills as well.

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Post by mike holiday » Wed May 10, 2006 6:10 am

dap to the review
dual 1.8 G4 10.4.9 w/768 ram & A&H xone 3D


"I ain't often right but I've never been wrong"

Fledz
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Post by Fledz » Wed May 10, 2006 6:57 am

I personally see both sides as being wrong ;)

Danny Futuro
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Post by Danny Futuro » Wed May 10, 2006 7:18 am

the president of iran makes one big mistake in this one:

bush acts in the name of corporatism, under the guise of christianity.

the problem is not bush alone, but the collaborative efforts of huge multi-national conglomerates that lobby to get politicians to do nice things for them.
Self-hating american.

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Post by sqook » Wed May 10, 2006 8:28 am

Danny Futuro wrote:the president of iran makes one big mistake in this one:

bush acts in the name of corporatism, under the guise of christianity.

the problem is not bush alone, but the collaborative efforts of huge multi-national conglomerates that lobby to get politicians to do nice things for them.
Actually, I think his biggest mistake was writing a letter... does he really think that Bush actually reads his mail? :)

On an unrelated note, does anyone know what "PBUH" stands for?

Danny Futuro
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Post by Danny Futuro » Wed May 10, 2006 9:52 am

sqook wrote:
Danny Futuro wrote:the president of iran makes one big mistake in this one:

bush acts in the name of corporatism, under the guise of christianity.

the problem is not bush alone, but the collaborative efforts of huge multi-national conglomerates that lobby to get politicians to do nice things for them.
Actually, I think his biggest mistake was writing a letter... does he really think that Bush actually reads his mail? :)

On an unrelated note, does anyone know what "PBUH" stands for?
haha no doubt.

PBUH means Peace Be Upon Him. found this explanation online:

"These letters are abbreviations for the words Peace Be Upon Him which are the meaning of the Arabic expression " 'Alaihis Salam", which is an expression that is said when the name of a prophet is mentioned.

This expression is widely used by English speaking Muslims. It is to be noticed here that this expression does not give the full meaning of "Salla Allahu 'Alaihi Wa Sallam". Therefore it is recommended that people do not use (p.b.u.h.) after the name of prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.); they should use "Salla Allahu 'Alaihi Wa Sallam" instead, or they may use the abbreviated form of (s.a..w) in writing."
Self-hating american.

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Post by Machinate » Wed May 10, 2006 10:14 am

sqook wrote:On an unrelated note, does anyone know what "PBUH" stands for?
yes, Peace Be Upon Him - Jesus is seen as a very important cat-daddy in Islam, has his own spot in heaven and ev'rythang.
mbp 2.66, osx 10.6.8, 8GB ram.

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Post by sqook » Wed May 10, 2006 10:20 am

Machinate wrote:
sqook wrote:On an unrelated note, does anyone know what "PBUH" stands for?
yes, Peace Be Upon Him - Jesus is seen as a very important cat-daddy in Islam, has his own spot in heaven and ev'rythang.
Yeah, I remember hearing in a cultural studies class somewhere that Jesus is recognized as a prophet in Islam. I'm still a bit fuzzy as to why it's ok to have pictures of him but not Mohammed, though, since they are both considered to be holy prophets... I think I'm missing something here.

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Post by sqook » Wed May 10, 2006 10:23 am

Also, for the record, I thought it was pretty tacky how he squeezed his whole holocaust denial issue into this letter:
After the war they claimed that six million Jews had been killed. Six million people that were surely related to at least two million families.
Again let us assume that these events are true...

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Post by Machinate » Wed May 10, 2006 10:44 am

sqook wrote:
Machinate wrote:
sqook wrote:On an unrelated note, does anyone know what "PBUH" stands for?
yes, Peace Be Upon Him - Jesus is seen as a very important cat-daddy in Islam, has his own spot in heaven and ev'rythang.
Yeah, I remember hearing in a cultural studies class somewhere that Jesus is recognized as a prophet in Islam. I'm still a bit fuzzy as to why it's ok to have pictures of him but not Mohammed, though, since they are both considered to be holy prophets... I think I'm missing something here.
afaik traditionally drawings of people as a whole are frowned upon, since each person is created in G*ds image, and it's forbidden to draw G*d. Makes sense I guess.

Also, Jesus is seen as "a" prophet, Muhammed is "The" "Prophet". Still waiting for NoiseTonePause to chime in here... ;)
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Post by noisetonepause » Wed May 10, 2006 11:26 am

Mohammad is seen as the last prophet. Basically, almost every religious figure before Mohammad has been recognised by some muslims as a prophet (even Krishna and Buddha) of the One God*, but the problem is that (allegedly) their teachings have been distorted since they received their revelations from God. (Allegedly) It is not so with Mohammad whose revelations were written down exactly as they were received, meaning that the message of the Qur'an is exactly what God intended to tell us from the beginning (Mohammad did not found Islam, he just told us about it - Adam was the first muslim, Abraham/Ibrahim was a muslim, Moses was a muslim, Jesus was a muslim).

As for Ahmadinajad's letter I have only one comment: Try juxtaposing it with Bush's rhetorical "skills" and see who comes across as an uncivilised brute...

-Paws

*<cynical hat>cos that makes their followers one of the people of the book, and thus you can live alongside them and tax them, and their money spends just as well as everyone else's.</cynical hat>
Suit #1: I mean, have you got any insight as to why a bright boy like this would jeopardize the lives of millions?
Suit #2: No, sir, he says he does this sort of thing for fun.

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Post by pepezabala » Wed May 10, 2006 11:44 am

I think both presidents are dangerous men and religious wankers, but Ahmadinajad's letter contains some strong points that most people on this planet agree on.

And I find it curious how corporate media reacts on it.

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Post by Benshik » Wed May 10, 2006 11:52 am

A lot of things are true in this letter, still it's being used for the wrong reasons.

Indeed, what is the purpose of this letter???
its one asshole pointing his finger at another asshole sayin: "Look, you did some bad things, so i can do some bad things too!"

it is a letter of war.

I believe in tolerance and human rights.
These values are being more and more fucked right now.
Tell anyone outside the Western world about them, they will treat you with much sarcasm and desillusion and tell you that what Bush is doing is a proof that all this is wrong and hypocrite.

Ok, Bush is a complete asshole. He is wrong. It is easy to feel angry at all his lies and his corruption, but we must not fall into the tempting discourse of these extremists. Bush did terrible things in the name of democracy and freedom. But we need to keep on believing in it, because from here i can see how things change for the worst when people slowly slide into xenophobia and totalitarism.

Peace

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Post by Keyser Soze » Wed May 10, 2006 12:41 pm

noisetonepause wrote: Mohammad is seen as the last prophet.......... (Mohammad did not found Islam, he just told us about it - Adam was the first muslim, Abraham/Ibrahim was a muslim, Moses was a muslim, Jesus was a muslim).
Actually, Abraham ( I think), definitely Moses and Jesus were Jews. There was nothing muslim about them, unless you mean a muslim is someone
who is religious.

I don't mean to start a anti muslim debate here. I have many friends from muslim backgrounds who don't share the ideology and mentality that goes with it.

The problem with all religions and their factions is all believe they are right, but public relations regarding the muslim faith is not a good one.

The west sees the muslim faith as a repressive one. In fact the concept of free will doesn't exist as it does in other religions. The women are dressed as ninjas (those aren't my words-they come from a friend of mine who comes froma muslim background). Why are women forced to cover themselves and be repressed (which in essence that is when they are by being told to cover themselves) and not have the same rights as a man? It is stated in a BBC report that 80% of Germans associate Islam with terrorism and oppression of women.

The koran also has passages that basically say slaughter non muslims (the infidel). The hullabaloo that was raised when that cartoon came out regarding mohammed was another example of poor public relations the muslims are giving themselves. First of all, the cartoon was misunderstood. To me it was obvious that the cartoon was a send up of people who use religion (in this case the muslim religion) to justify terrorist acts. It had nothing to do with mocking their prophet. But, it was another excuse to propagate anti west feelings by I guess mainly the hardliners. Nevertheless, the image that is being presented is not a good one.

An Australian friend of mine told me that muslim groups in his country have tried to get Christmas banned as it doesn't respect the muslim faith. From what I remember, he said that Christmas songs are no longer allowed in schools because muslim kids feel left out. I mean come on?? That is totally ridiculous!!! Do you think that a bunch of westerners living in Saudi Arabia could form a protest group banning ramadan because it doesn't respect their religion could get away with it?

Many of the worlds threatening political problems lie with extremist muslim groups hell bent on bringing the west down and inhibiting freedom of speech, thought and expression. The concept of free will is unacceptable. If there is a god, he gave us free will and with it all its consequences. Perhaps some aspects of the west are "decadent" in their eyes. But so what? If we all have to justify ourselves to a god, then it is the individual's responsibility to "suffer" whatever consequences there may be. Our behaviour ( as long as it doesn't have direct consequences on someone else) cannot be imposed on us.

Hardline Muslims won't tolerate or accept questioning of their views or feel that they have anything to learn from the "infidel". I mean come on!! The society is in a state of stagnation. Suspicious of embracing new ideas or ideas that force them to question anything. Even fundamental questions like "is there really a god" is out of bounds in a muslim culture.

I could go on but I have deviated from the original thread.

I would like to say again that I am not trying to stir up "hate" or "trouble". All I am doing is pointing out the poor public relations the muslim faith, particularly hardline thought, is perceived and presented in the world.
Keaton always said, "I don't believe in God, but I'm afraid of him." Well I believe in God, and the only thing that scares me is Keyser Soze.

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