Ableton Forum

OK, I let my other thread turn into an pissing match so this time i promise not to get riled up when somebody comes in and calls me an idiot. You have my word i will ignore any personal insults this time.

Some people actually gave good input in the other thread, notably Siddhu, and i'd really like it if this whole thread could be usefull. anyway, here we go:


Yesterday, after being berated again for asking someone what they would do with fancy meters in live in the feature wishlish forum, And of course not getting an answer other than, "are you serious?" I decided i would make a thread dedicated to finding out what the hell is up with metering. I don't think i'm the only one here who has no idea what one is actually supposed to do with better meters.

In fact, in all of my mentorships, no engineer ever told me that they were for anything other than checking input levels on a track, or making sure that the master does not clip and still has lively dynamic range.

My argument if that is indeed true, is that in live, input meters aren't as important, since i really need to make sure that i'm not clipping at my audio interface, and if my level is correct there, it's going to be fine in live. Unlike a mixing board, i'll never be sending to tape from one of live's channels, so an acurate numbered meter seems unneeded to me for the individual tracks.

Now, for the second thing that I am aware of as something one does with metering, making sure that the master does not clip. Ok, well, live's master meter turns bright red at the point of clip, which makes it easy to determine that one.

The last thing i've heard, is that you use a meter to determine if you have lively dynamic range in your mix. OK, well, that's interesting, but i can tell by listening if my mix has lively dynamic range or not. I can close my eyes and do that. I don't need to look at a meter.


All i want, is for someone to tell me a practical use of metering aside from the ones i've described, or make a good case for live's meters being inadequate.

What i don't want, are links to stuff that tells me how metering works. Or why one system of metering is more elegant or acurate than another. I understand that. I want to know what people are practically doing with their meters.

I'm asking this, because i am genuinely curious, and want to know if i'm missing something. And i think there are a lot of other users here who feel the same, and also need a real *practical* explanation of this, not just theory.




.lm.

I use the numerical metering in Ozone sometimes because my ears/studio acoustics are not perfect and I can't always hear a .5db difference in the kick level, but I can see it on a numerical meter, and hear it on a loud PA. It's a real fly-by-wire thing for sure, but conditions and expertise aren't always perfect, so it can be a helpful learning tool.

yes, the meter can show a difference of .5db but to what end?

Are you trying to set your kick at a certain level? What level? You start your mix by setting your kick at that level and then bring everything else in or what?


.lm.

yep, I often start the mix by setting the kick to -6 db. It's just something I read on a production forum about a -6db rule for kicks, and I started using it as a general starting place. I don't know how valid that is, but it helps me get started.

It also helps me to correlate numerical volume changes in Live with perceived volume changes inmy ears. So I can look at the meters, nudge by .5db, and notice what a .5db difference sounds like.

Basically, audio is often measured numerically, so it helps me to have a numerical visual reference for feedback with all the numerical data. I also enjoy watching a spectral analysis of music to help correlate all my senses for creating music.

I will say that I strive for well-trained enough ears to be able to let go of the visual and judge solely by audio.

Don't other audio workstations have a facility which seeks out clips and indicates where clipping peaks occur? That might be useful for some people (such as some of us here) who are not professionally trained audio engineers and haven't worked out how to use proper metering yet. It won't make a mix better but will at least indicate where troublesome clips occur. There must surely be some inaccuracy to the display of clips in Live (or other DAWs). For example, a very brief momentary clip which is shorter than the screen-redraw time might not be "displayed" when you are looking for "red meters".

Hey muffin - I was going to insult you so you'd feel at home. But all the flaming in the other thread was unnecessary and I hope we all get the answers here without heads rolling...

leisuremuffin wrote:OK, I let my other thread turn into an pissing match so this time i promise not to get riled up when somebody comes in and calls me an idiot. You have my word i will ignore any personal insults this time.

.lm.

You "promise"? ? lol

ethios4 wrote:yep, I often start the mix by setting the kick to -6 db. It's just something I read on a production forum about a -6db rule for kicks, and I started using it as a general starting place. I don't know how valid that is, but it helps me get started.

It also helps me to correlate numerical volume changes in Live with perceived volume changes inmy ears. So I can look at the meters, nudge by .5db, and notice what a .5db difference sounds like.

Basically, audio is often measured numerically, so it helps me to have a numerical visual reference for feedback with all the numerical data. I also enjoy watching a spectral analysis of music to help correlate all my senses for creating music.

I will say that I strive for well-trained enough ears to be able to let go of the visual and judge solely by audio.

OK, cool, that's a practical application for sure. This is the type of shit i'm looking for here.

Interestingly enough, i just opened a mix i was working on and soloed the kick and it was peaking between -9db and -6db and the mix sounds pretty good, so i guess there's something to that.

We're talking about peak level not rms, right? I don't think it would be possible for me to get a kick's average to -6 without squashing it to death.



And if the kick is -6db i probably want my snare to be around that too, right? or no?



Anyone else have something practical they do with meters? Maybe jackyl would like to share something with us?



.lm.

Yeah, that -6db is peak not rms.

It sounds like different people work different ways.

Leisuremuffin, what do you, or have you used besides Live? Have you used meters in the past and find you don't need them in Live? Do you have other gear that have meters?
When I'm using Live, I need no numbers. I like a lot of signal with no clipping and Live's meters tell me that. If I'm running a mic through a console and then into Live, then I like to know that -6 on the mic pre equals -6 on the console and hopefully -6 in Live or whatever DAW. It would be handy to have them in Live but I don't need them. I think they are a safety net for those who aren't experienced with them. I don't agree with 'mixing by numbers' but for those with a strong technical understanding of their equipment, meters tell you exactly what is happening.
I started with VU's on a tape machine. Anyone who has worked with tape will tell you that you can't work with tape without a meter. I find digital media to be much more forgiving.

I think your use for a meter will depend on your background as well as your current habits.
Most of all, don't trust anything you can't hear.

that's what i think too, jerry.

A mixing desk in an environment with tape definately needs numbered metering, for starters, how would you calibrate the tape machine?

shit, you need it on the mixing desk to set input levels.


but digital is different, once you have a file, it's going to play at the same level on any other system! It's not like tape where you need to have test tones at the front of each reel to ensure correct levels.


Mixing by number sounds interesting to me though, and i might play around with it, but for me, i feel like i work a lot better when i'm paying attention with my ears, not my eyes.



.lm.

Yeah, in theory, 0dbFS should be the same in every digital environment except for those pesky DAC's. All DAW's are not created equal. I think part of the draw to Protools a few years ago was the fact that their DAC's sounded quite a bit better than others on the market at that time.
Digtial should be the same inside every DAW, but when it changes to analog, there may be a slight difference. 1
I would advise against mixing by numbers. To me, it's like watching a great mixer and trying to copy where they set their faders on totally different material at your studio. It won't work. -6 for a kick seems the same thing to me. If your kick is at -6 dispite the material you are mixing, does it always sound good? I know that 'mud' sound is around 250hz, but every song I mix has a slightly differnt 'mud' quality to it.
Understanding the numbers is a good way to start looking for issues. Black and white attitudes towards them are a great way to ruin a mix.

I read that thread, and it had some interesting points. I think we should try to learn what numbers mean, and then (just then) decide whether we need them or not. All I know is that the more ways you have to judge audio material the better. The other day I had a bass that was 1db louder on the right channel than the left one. I hadn't noticed until I saw the meters on Wavelab...Just by looking at live's metering hadn't revealed that, and I also couldn't hear the difference.

Well, i've gotta say that a bass sound being 1db hotter on one side won't be the end of the world.

I know we all have everybody telling us not to pan bass out of center from day one, but i still like the way "magical mystery tour" sounds in stereo. That has shit panned all the way hard right and left. Like the whole drumset hard left bass guitar hard right. shit like that. I know that my ears can't localize bass frequencies in a stereo field as well as they can highs, but i can choose to ignore that if i want to and if the result sounds good. Or if it sounds bad in an interesting way!


It's not that i don't know what the numbers mean, i understand that, it's just that i have a hard time figuring out what you're supposed to be doing wiht those numbers when you're trying to mix.


To me, i know i'll make a better mix if i sit down, close my eyes, and just mix. If i'm trying to fuss with numbers i'm missing the actual point of what my job is, which is making it sound good.


That's my opinion, but i'm certainly open to other people's opinions and even trying other peoples techniques. But until somebody throws me something a little more earth shattering that i'm missing, i'm not going to be the one to say things like:

Live *needs* better metering

or

Live isn't pro because of it's metering.


that's just me, i guess.



.lm.

jerry123 wrote: -6 for a kick seems the same thing to me. If your kick is at -6 dispite the material you are mixing, does it always sound good? I know that 'mud' sound is around 250hz, but every song I mix has a slightly differnt 'mud' quality to it.
Understanding the numbers is a good way to start looking for issues. Black and white attitudes towards them are a great way to ruin a mix.

definitely - and once you start EQing you are changing the levels again

I've been getting into DJing more and find that I need some active devices in the chain to smooth out my mistakes, from EQing, and setting levels and I jump from clip to clip.

Would this be a good time for me to ask what people use in their Master Output chains? Nebulae made a great point about a Utility, I assume a compressor would be obvious too, anything else? What order for the devices?

Thanks!