Why I feel I can't use Live as Sequencer yet.

salvobeta · Post by **salvobeta** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:40 am

Well, I finally purchased Live about 2 months ago (version 3), and now that I've had a lot fo time to record and write music, and rearrange how iI use my tools, I've been trying to figure out how to use Live possibly as my Main sequencer.

I've seen so many on this list that claim they can use Live as their sole sequencer. Unless they are DJ's or only doing loop based music production, or very fixed quantized music, I don't see how this is possible.

First the obvious reasons i think for most people is the lack of being able to sequence midi, or use Virtual Insturments (sans Rewire). I don't even know if Ableton even intends to include such a feature ( think i heard once that they didn't intend to, but that currently is my foggy memory, so don't hold me up on it). For some that may be fine, but I see for a great many, including myself, not viable for a main sequencer/workspace.

The next issues may be on the list of possible improvements for Ableton, or there might be a way to do it currently but I just can't find it. So if anybody has suggestions, let me know. (I'm not trying to trash Ableton, I'm trying to find a way to use it the way i need. Trust me!)

Crossfading of samples (clips) in a scene. I'm not talking about the crossfater functionality, I'm talking about if two regions overlap at the ends, being able to crossfade between the two pieces of material. Most other apps accomplish this to some extent. Some people feel this is not needed. But I think it is, and I'll tell you why. I often record many different Things , mutlitracked, such as drums. This sometimes can create up to 10-12 tracks per take. And I often make different takes in different passes, and will attempt to comp them all together into a single take. But without cross fading this is difficult. Some parts will have a cymbal or something that rings out, or you might want to crossfade the sound so it sounds like you have no gaps. The solution it seems here that people have for Live, is to just create new tracks, but if you are dealing with many takes, and many tracks, it becomes very difficult to manage all those tracks.

Which brings me to my next issue. How does one make multiple takes on the same track? I tried just recording over the current tracks that I have, but that seems to overwrite them. not the files, but the placement in the arrange window. I'll have to go find the takes that I recorded and figure out whre the came from ,and then place them back into the track or into a separate track. Setting up new tracks each time i want to make a take, is very slow and disruptive, And becomes messy. Also, the loop recording feature wouldn't help me, because often i don't take over the EXACT SAME passage each time, and not always at once. Once you stop that feature no longer works.

REX file support. It would be really great to match that whole time stretching thing that Live has with the ability to use REX files.

there are more little nuances that I find troubling, but could be just me not being used to the differnt paradigm this app uses.

But on another note, here's how I find Live to be useful for me.

A sample manipulator. I can now Pitch, and stretch, and effect samples in really unique ways QUICKLY in Live.

I can do Beat fixing/time correction/tiem warping easily in Live. This is a handy feature for me. But I wish it had some sort of beat slicing feature so that this could be an even faster step.

It works great as a sampler in other applications.

It's also a great song notepad. a way to generate ideas quickly. Throw a bunch of sounds in, get them matching up and to the correct tempo. Then records some passages in, and even have the thing change and everything stays in sync. For that it's pretty cool.

But I still always end up finding myself exporting audio to another sequencer such as Digital Performer or Logic (ugg).

Anyways, I think Live is a great idea, but It still needs to mature. I hope to see that someday.

Sean

Nick Maxwell · Post by **Nick Maxwell** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 2:21 pm

I've seen so many on this list that claim they can use Live as their sole sequencer. Unless they are DJ's or only doing loop based music production, or very fixed quantized music, I don't see how this is possible.

I write some of the most nonlinear music in the world, and I don't think I could do it in nearly as much depth or speed without Live.

First the obvious reasons i think for most people is the lack of being able to sequence midi, or use Virtual Insturments (sans Rewire). I don't even know if Ableton even intends to include such a feature ( think i heard once that they didn't intend to, but that currently is my foggy memory, so don't hold me up on it). For some that may be fine, but I see for a great many, including myself, not viable for a main sequencer/workspace.

Most of us feel where you are coming from on this one. You can remedy this situation by downloading the free and excellent Plogue Bidule: www.plogue.com/bidule. No, I do not work for Plogue. It acts as a vst host, a rewire host, and a really cool sound making environment in its own right. The way I sequence my VST instruments is simply to record their output and sequence the audio segments in the arranger view, or realtime in the clipview.

Crossfading of samples (clips) in a scene.

Have you tried the envelopes in Live? They can do all that and more.

Which brings me to my next issue. How does one make multiple takes on the same track?

well, you can't to my knowledge do this, but if you spend some time getting into the genius of how Live works, you will see that there are probably better methods of working. I think the trick is really to get yourself out of the standard Cubase/Protools/etc. mindset (don't take that as an insult, it's just an observation). Live excels at doing a lot of takes by punching in and out using the sweet quantization options in Live.

REX file support. It would be really great to match that whole time stretching thing that Live has with the ability to use REX files.

I agree, however there are plenty of options to get around this. Cubase and Reason both have Rewire which Live natively supports, and they both handle rex files exceedingly well, so just run them into Live from one of those programs (this is assuming you have either, which may be wrong).

That is the most I can do in answering your questions. The manual will do much better than I at filling in the details. Good luck!

- Nick Maxwell

The Hulk · Post by **The Hulk** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 5:30 pm

I've been using Live as a DAW for some pretty non-experimental pop music. It definitely has it's frustrations and i've learned many workarounds. 1st workaround is that if you just do one takes, like a whole part without punching in you don't have to edit so much and you don't miss the crossfade feature. To sync Midi I use Numerology as the clock master and midi sequencer and i track my hardware synths and drums in one long full take into Live. (this also works with Cubase as long as you start Live first). I've noticed that using long clips really slows Live down, so i myself am looking into DP4 as a main Daw.

Amberience · Post by **Amberience** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 9:15 pm

When people say that use Live as their sole sequencer.. thats all it is. It doesn't mean they aren't using Reason to accompany it, it doesn't mean they aren't using Plogue either, it just means Live is the sequencer, the rest are sound sources.

I use all three of these programs, and the majority of sequencing is done in Live.

16 BIT · Post by **16 BIT** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:56 pm

While Live is amazing in many respects, this is actually part of the probem. Its so good I also want to use it as my main sequencer/daw. Its like Ableton have dangled a huge carrot in front of me but it keeps moving away.

I simply cannot use Live solely becuase of the lack of midi. I can live without corsffades, I can even live with Lives poorish sound quality for some stuff depedning on the warp factors. I can live without the in depth audio editing like Pro tools and the overly complicated midi editing of Logic but I simply cannot live without midi.

Many people on this forum when confronted with a midiless soul like myself recommend something like plogue Bidule....Well I tried it, but it simply doesnt work as it says, and in a strange way it pops up in my other apps when it shouldnt. It reminds me a little of Microsft word....kinda takes over your system and to be perfectly honest its overly comlicated or badly explained. I got it working but I wasnt exactly enthralled.

But I wish some of the recmenders would understand that Many Of Us dont wish to use other apps with Live. We want an all in one solution even if it means taking quite a step back in functionality for a few years.However I can live with that because what Live does, it does it so damn good.

I dont want

bidule
reason
cubase
Logic
Pt's
sonar
etc etc

I want LIVE on its own

think of it like the techno and hip hop guys that still use MPC300's its an all in one solution that gets the job done and most importantly is inspirational. Thats why so many people still use it.

And if Ableton adds midi.Then WOW all the other apps out there will really start getting worried.

PS
Midi users like me dont want to print to audio in case we need to change something right up to the last minute of the track. I think some people fail to realise this.

podprod · Post by **podprod** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:09 pm

right on the money 16bit
I also feel that midi is the missing link with live to make this program rock.
Where I am coming from is a place with lots of improvisation with a wide variety of samplers and synths..orchestral and jazz hip hop and bass and drums so me too rather than use 3-4 programs to support Live..would welcome the opportunity to work in 1 stable enviornment and add other great programs as needed like reason..not to be reliant upon them to make music the way I need to.
Live is the best and will be a serious threat once MIDI is added!
Peace
this is a great program ON THE MOVE
regards
PODPROD

Nick Maxwell · Post by **Nick Maxwell** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:50 pm

Midi would be neat in Live, but there are genuine concerns as to the overhead that this functionality would add to such a lightweight program as Live. I render to audio and then manipulate warp markers to alter timing, or simply break up clips into the right timing in the arrange window. This eliminates the need for Midi for me personally, and it feels a lot more inspirational to work this way.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. It's like a previous poster said, we all want Live to be an all in one solution, even if we must give up some pretty significant (to our personal preferences) features.

good luck finding something that makes you completely happy. Personally, I don't mind altering my working method so that I can be totally happy with Live, but wouldn't expect everyone to feel this way.

- Nick

DanMan · Post by **DanMan** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:17 am

podprod wrote:right on the money 16bit
I also feel that midi is the missing link with live to make this program rock.
... PODPROD

probably wouldnt be able to be called Live anyore?

miktronik · Post by **miktronik** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:39 am

has anyone tried rewireing projkt 5 into live- awesome midi handling for those who "cant live without midi". using the live projekt 5 combination i hope, hope, hope that ableton doesnt implement midi editing and vsti support in upcomming versions of live...look at the update from version 2 to 3 everyone wanted vsti support, instead we get real time clip envelopes...!!, so revolutionary and groundbreaking, a feature that no other sequencer can offer and still if i need vsti i can use projekt 5 or even the freeware bidule, however projekt 5 (though in its infancy)i believe is the other half of live. the yin and yang if you will...anyway i hope for version 4 ableton stunns us again with some other cutting edge functionalities instead of tired vsti and midi support..../ i for one am confident ableton will stun us again

huggs and kisses
mik

Ti-Groove · Post by **Ti-Groove** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:39 pm

Hi!

I think Live schould be what it already is:
a great Realtime sequencing and timestrechting-Tool for Audiomaterial.
Sequencing(in depth),Audioediting(in depth)..... is much more versatile in the "great" Hosts like Cubase,Logic.Also the Mixer-constitution in Cubase etc is better for a whole Midi-Audio Production.

But you can forget Cubase for a Liverperformance...this is what Live is for!!!

I really enjoy the advatages of both.

Just my 2 cents

soundsliketree · Post by **soundsliketree** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:33 pm

what is projekt 5 and how can i learn about it?
thanks!

Amberience · Post by **Amberience** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:13 pm

16 BIT wrote: I dont want

bidule
reason
cubase
Logic
Pt's
sonar
etc etc

I want LIVE on its own

I could say that I don't want to use Live... If only Propellerheads would add all of Lives features to Reason.. WOW! How cool that would be!!

...

Use whatever gets the job done. They are tools, nothing more.

noisetonepause · Post by **noisetonepause** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:34 pm

I don't think Ableton should add MIDI to Live before they get the Digital Audio Workstation side of things really shining. It's great as it is, but it needs more keyboard control so you can be really swift with it, and there are all these relatively minor things it lacks when compared to PT and Logic - grouping tracks for editing audio, ghost parts, per-track zooming, proper track grouping, side chaining effects, all these things that'd just make it so much better and easier to work with. Live would really wipe the proverbial floor with ProTools if it had all that.

-Paws

miktronik · Post by **miktronik** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:45 pm

soundsliketree----

projekt 5 is an open environment, windows only "virtual synth rack"... it is also rewire capable. it is similar to reason, orion, or storm in that it has its own built in synths, drum machines samplers....but you can also hook in any vst,dx,vsti,dxi, synths & plugs...user interface is very clean and intuitive, workflow is very fast and intuitive...again it is a very young program (version 1.5 just came out last week) but it holds great potential and is the perfect accompaniement for live in that it has everything live lacks(midi & vsti support) and does it well and without clutter...if the $$$$ is a little steep also check out fruityloops 4.5, which also has vsti & rewire support.....there should be a link to fruity at the cakewalk site.....d

you can find out about projekt 5 here--

http://www.cakewalk.com or http://www.project5.com

you can download demo here---

http://www.cakewalk.com/download/default.asp#windows

enjoi!

miktronik · Post by **miktronik** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:52 pm

noisetonepause wrote:I don't think Ableton should add MIDI to Live before they get the Digital Audio Workstation side of things really shining

yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes

the future is in optimization......

also amd\intel and altivec optimization!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

big ups
mik

Why I feel I can't use Live as Sequencer yet.

Why I feel I can't use Live as Sequencer yet.

Midi

Re: Midi

projekt 5?