Logic gets Ableton Style audio

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
16 BIT
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Location: London

Logic gets Ableton Style audio

Post by 16 BIT » Sat Feb 28, 2004 12:27 pm

well i knew it would happen. I got this info from an Apple store when the guy was showing me GB. I dont think he was supposed to tell me but he said Apple programmers with Emagic programmers are programming this feature in to Logic for the release of Logic 7 in August of this year. I also take that to mean this is a big job and Logic 7 will look radically different from what it does now

My point is...for those of us that use Ableton live for this feature as a studio tool and require midi...........its a no brainer whats going to happen.

Ive been saying it since I joined. If Live doesnt have midi implementation then 99% of the dudes that dont use it as a Live performance tool asre simply going to use some other software when this feature is implemented..

When Logic gets it, so will Cubase, PTs, and all the rest of the daws out there.

If ableton want to stay on top they must add midi.

Then again perhaps Ableton are happy to never ad midi and remain a DAW that can never grow out of the niche market.

Ok flame me

:)

heino

Post by heino » Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:23 pm

sorry to sound harsh, but,
people like you just dont seem to understand what
ableton live is all about
its not just 'a feature' that can be added to logic
to make it 'similar' and therefore 'the same'...

i really hope ableton will NOT add standard midi seq. to live,
and i'm pretty sure they will not!
(i hope they rather fix the midiclock-out-problems)

if you want standard midi seq. do it via rewire!!
please people, stop begging for 1980's features!

heino

Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Feb 28, 2004 2:56 pm

I respect both your opinions, but 16 bit has an extremely valid point. If Live doesn't implement midi, which is a core staple of most DAW (and which almost all DAW users utilize at some point--it is not so 1980's, people use it everyday--I bet you use it to control Live), it may get passed by. 16 bit's point is that as other software catches up to Live (to some degree), if Live doesn't implement one of the most basic features of these other apps, there will be less and less of a reason to use Live for many people. Granted most of us using Live now are too enthralled to switch, but even so, I for one would like Live to grow in sales exponentially so they can hire more and more developers to fix bugs, some up with sweet new effects and ideas, and generally make the product better. All of us already owning Live don't stand to add too much to their resource pool over time--its the people out there who haven't bought it yet that hold the funds that will keep live going into the future. As other apps catch up, if Live doesn't implement midi, I have to think that sales of Live will go down some, which won't help development. I know a lot of people are opposed to midi in Live, but c'mon, don't spoil the party for the rest of us, and give Live's development crew some respect--have they ever rushed anything half-ass into the software--NO. Is everything they do nothing short of audio revolution--YES. Could they implement midi in a way that those that don't use it won't need to deal with it--yes. Besides, with how unique and inspired their program is, I bet they could come up with some midi implementation that might be so different and cool even the haters will want a piece of the action.

Ryan

GetOverItAlready

Post by GetOverItAlready » Sat Feb 28, 2004 4:05 pm

Yes midi is a staple of most DAWS ...
Live is not a DAW it is a performance and arranging tool..
You knew the deal when you bought it..
Get over it ...
There's a million and one rewire work arounds here and LIVE does not wan't to become another bog standard stick in the mud DAW style interface....
Greater midi features have not stopped thousand of people using ACID pro either.
And when you go to gig that LOGIC masterpiece I'm soooo sure you're gonna lug around that G5 and use the Logic features instead.
You get perfectly good results with Project 5 ,Reaktor rewired into LIVE.
And quite frankly they shouldn't be making this software something they don't wan't it to be IMHO ...
I wouldn't mind a slew on no-realtime write to disk synthesis feature akin to Metasynth added to live as a sub application but really..
Stop your whinging and go get Logic already...
PS: Hows using Reaktor as an AU in Pro-tools going for U Mac lovers out there - and the G5 doesn't have problems :roll: ..........


So what you're saying is that APPLE & LOGIC have just done a BEHRINGER and ripped of Lives elastic audio features because they can't think of an original concept themselves :idea: :?

Nick Maxwell

hmm...

Post by Nick Maxwell » Sat Feb 28, 2004 5:55 pm

I was always under the impression that Behringer did clones of other companys' hardware not because they are devoid of original ideas, but simply because they are trying to make affordable versions of these products. Also, can you really blame the guys who make these other programs for implementing elastic audio etc.? This is how a competitive market is supposed to work. Ideally, Ableton will now be forced to improve upon Live, thereby benefiting us, the users.

- Nick

16 BIT
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Location: London

Post by 16 BIT » Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:52 pm

heino wrote:sorry to sound harsh, but,
people like you just dont seem to understand what
ableton live is all about
its not just 'a feature' that can be added to logic
to make it 'similar' and therefore 'the same'...

i really hope ableton will NOT add standard midi seq. to live,
and i'm pretty sure they will not!
(i hope they rather fix the midiclock-out-problems)

if you want standard midi seq. do it via rewire!!
please people, stop begging for 1980's features!

heino

no need to apologise and your not being Harsh.

But you are undoubtedly short sighted and have probably been making music and using music software for about 3 minutes.

Guess why I want Ableton to add midi?

To use it properly LIVE.

Live is not Live. I was doing what Live does now with an MPC3000 a 909, an 02R console, and a couple of synths. Add it all up and I was doing what you guys are doing now 7 years ago but with a difference. I was more LIVE than you could ever be using Live right now.

I programmed a set with bass coming from Channel 1, Kik drums channels 2 etc etc, so it was easy for me to blend in stuff and go on to the nxst track when I felt the audience were ready.

I have seen a few guys using Live on stage and to be perfectly honest theres nothing Live about it, and they looked oh so terribly boring with their heads down all the time. I mean at least I could seriously tweak stuff with my old midi setup. yes yes yes I can filter the sounds and so on in Live, but I cant change the esscence of a sound.

Theres more but ill leave that for the anonymous ignoramous

:twisted:

Per Boysen
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Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:11 pm
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by Per Boysen » Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:02 pm

I just want to add that the implementation of Apple Loops into Logic is very different from the concept of Ableton Live. Logic provides a linear composition tool, the very best IMHO. I do not think Logic can ever compete with Live's session window as a performance tool for live mixing and on-the-fly arranging.

I'm using Live as "a Logic plug-in" daily but I would never dare to bring Logic on the stage for a gig. It has too many features, audio engine, midi engine... And all this is good in the studio but makes it less stable for a live situation.

The good thing with Live is that it's rock steady and I would guess that's because its code has no midi engine, with all those difficulties to sync audio and midi during tempo changes etc etc (sorry for the length, I was aiming a lot shorter when starting, he, he...)
Greetings from Sweden

Per Boysen
http://www.perboysen.com

16 BIT
Posts: 244
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:03 am
Location: London

Post by 16 BIT » Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:16 pm

GetOverItAlready wrote:Yes midi is a staple of most DAWS ...
Live is not a DAW it is a performance and arranging tool..
You knew the deal when you bought it..
Get over it ...
There's a million and one rewire work arounds here and LIVE does not wan't to become another bog standard stick in the mud DAW style interface....
Greater midi features have not stopped thousand of people using ACID pro either.
And when you go to gig that LOGIC masterpiece I'm soooo sure you're gonna lug around that G5 and use the Logic features instead.
You get perfectly good results with Project 5 ,Reaktor rewired into LIVE.
And quite frankly they shouldn't be making this software something they don't wan't it to be IMHO ...
I wouldn't mind a slew on no-realtime write to disk synthesis feature akin to Metasynth added to live as a sub application but really..
Stop your whinging and go get Logic already...
PS: Hows using Reaktor as an AU in Pro-tools going for U Mac lovers out there - and the G5 doesn't have problems :roll: ..........


So what you're saying is that APPLE & LOGIC have just done a BEHRINGER and ripped of Lives elastic audio features because they can't think of an original concept themselves :idea: :?


Hi Doofus, Heres what Im actually saying. This is important stuff so read carefully. You might learn something

Theres a thousand good reasons why they should add midi and only one I can think of why they shouldnt.

But your brain is obviously far to miniscule to comprehend the stupidity of your senseles littles rantings.

Everytime I see a moronic ranting like yours it simply cracks me up....ITS TRUE....HA HA HA HA HA HA :lol: :lol: :lol:

Guess what?...........Its Your Mind Thats Closed. Therefor I seriously doubt you have a single creative pimple on your spotty fat ass

Now why dont you run off and buy your $50 pre-programmed pre-generalised, no barin required little collection of loops and load them up in Live. 3 clicks with the mouse and your done. Even your limited creativeity could reach those dizzy heights Dont forget to kid yourself on that your merely one step away from Picasso........How long have paintbrushes been around????? FOOL!



ha ha ha HA

:)

PS
COme back soon :)

:twisted: :lol: :lol:

16 BIT
Posts: 244
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:03 am
Location: London

Post by 16 BIT » Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:19 pm

GetOverItAlready wrote:
So what you're saying is that APPLE & LOGIC have just done a BEHRINGER and ripped of Lives elastic audio features because they can't think of an original concept themselves :idea: :?
GetOverItAlready wrote:
So what you're saying is that APPLE & LOGIC have just done a BEHRINGER and ripped of Lives elastic audio features because they can't think of an original concept themselves :idea: :?
GetOverItAlready wrote:
So what you're saying is that APPLE & LOGIC have just done a BEHRINGER and ripped of Lives elastic audio features because they can't think of an original concept themselves :idea: :?

GetOverItAlready wrote:
So what you're saying is that APPLE & LOGIC have just done a BEHRINGER and ripped of Lives elastic audio features because they can't think of an original concept themselves :idea: :?

GetOverItAlready wrote:
So what you're saying is that APPLE & LOGIC have just done a BEHRINGER and ripped of Lives elastic audio features because they can't think of an original concept themselves :idea: :?

GetOverItAlready wrote:
So what you're saying is that APPLE & LOGIC have just done a BEHRINGER and ripped of Lives elastic audio features because they can't think of an original concept themselves :idea: :?







HA HA...... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yu crack me up.........Im on teh deck as I type....ha ha ha I can barely type as I marvel at this...Your a GENIUS......Ha ha ha tee hee hee

Grijak
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:10 pm

Post by Grijak » Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:21 pm

GetOverItAlready wrote:Yes midi is a staple of most DAWS ...
Live is not a DAW it is a performance and arranging tool..
You knew the deal when you bought it..
Get over it ...
There's a million and one rewire work arounds here and LIVE does not wan't to become another bog standard stick in the mud DAW style interface....
Greater midi features have not stopped thousand of people using ACID pro either.
And when you go to gig that LOGIC masterpiece I'm soooo sure you're gonna lug around that G5 and use the Logic features instead.
You get perfectly good results with Project 5 ,Reaktor rewired into LIVE.
And quite frankly they shouldn't be making this software something they don't wan't it to be IMHO ...
I wouldn't mind a slew on no-realtime write to disk synthesis feature akin to Metasynth added to live as a sub application but really..
Stop your whinging and go get Logic already...
PS: Hows using Reaktor as an AU in Pro-tools going for U Mac lovers out there - and the G5 doesn't have problems :roll: ..........


So what you're saying is that APPLE & LOGIC have just done a BEHRINGER and ripped of Lives elastic audio features because they can't think of an original concept themselves :idea: :?
I MUST agree wholeheartedly here! The very reason LIVE is what it is, is because it so beautifully SHATTERS the mold of what has come before! You people that are asking Ableton to turn LIVE into just another DAW are really missing the point of what LIVE is! This program so turned me upside down and inside out whan I started to get my head around it because I was so used to thinking in a linear fashion that I put it away for about a year and did not touch it but then I went to a laptop performance here in Detroit back in October 2003 and this was right around the time that version 3 was supposed to hit. This dude was cool enough to let me stand behind him and watch what he was doing when I told him that I was a LIVE version 2 owner but could not get my head around it. He said "the reason you don't get LIVE is because you are thinking in a linear fashion" and then proceeded to show me what he meant and how LIVE works for him! It was only THEN that I began to understand the program and was able to go home that night, at 4AM and fire up my computer and try the things he showed me. I then went to my internet computer straight away and ordered the ver3 upgrade! I have not looked back since! :P

16 BIT
Posts: 244
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:03 am
Location: London

Post by 16 BIT » Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:42 pm

Anonymous wrote:I respect both your opinions, but 16 bit has an extremely valid point. If Live doesn't implement midi, which is a core staple of most DAW (and which almost all DAW users utilize at some point--it is not so 1980's, people use it everyday--I bet you use it to control Live), it may get passed by. 16 bit's point is that as other software catches up to Live (to some degree), if Live doesn't implement one of the most basic features of these other apps, there will be less and less of a reason to use Live for many people. Granted most of us using Live now are too enthralled to switch, but even so, I for one would like Live to grow in sales exponentially so they can hire more and more developers to fix bugs, some up with sweet new effects and ideas, and generally make the product better. All of us already owning Live don't stand to add too much to their resource pool over time--its the people out there who haven't bought it yet that hold the funds that will keep live going into the future. As other apps catch up, if Live doesn't implement midi, I have to think that sales of Live will go down some, which won't help development. I know a lot of people are opposed to midi in Live, but c'mon, don't spoil the party for the rest of us, and give Live's development crew some respect--have they ever rushed anything half-ass into the software--NO. Is everything they do nothing short of audio revolution--YES. Could they implement midi in a way that those that don't use it won't need to deal with it--yes. Besides, with how unique and inspired their program is, I bet they could come up with some midi implementation that might be so different and cool even the haters will want a piece of the action.

Ryan
Good points.

If ableton simply added midi functions that operate as the audio clips do then those that dont want to advance their creativeity or Ableton Live dont need to use it.

I see this rubbish from the naysayers all the time:

"use Bidule"

"use Reason"

"Theres a workaround"

"Blah Blah Blah"

"It says on the Box its for Live"

So lets understand this:

Most naysers use midi with Live through some sort opf convulted and creative reducing process. YET, they dont want midi in live????????

Oh I see.......Im on the wrong planet!!


EVERYBODY I know in this business who has used Live would like to see midi added.....NO LIE. I havent met a single person who has said they wouldnt want midi added. But everyone I know creates their own music as well as using Loops off the shelf.

The real reason for the nosayers midiless environment is in the above paragraph



My 1 and only concern with midi being added is that they F**k up its implementation. They have to keep it simple, and you cant get any simpler than the way the audio functions are implemented.

but I totally trust the Ableton programmers and I am certain they woul dget it right.

If they announced tomorrow they would never do this I would stop asking for midi and totally accept the decision. But this software is so good, I simply dont want to use anything else.

And your right. The naysayers are a vocal bunch in here but they should not be allowed to spoil it for the rest of us.

I mean I cant help being more creative than them.....

:D

GetOverItAlready

Post by GetOverItAlready » Sat Feb 28, 2004 8:12 pm

Well being in "the industry" as you put it and a well seasoned hardware veteran of 17years .
I know what I do and don't want in an application.
Not everybody in this industry wants Midi implemented in LIVE .
Thanks for the over bloated generalisation though.
3 minute noobs don't know what they want I agree.
Some of us bought this because it shatters a few audio structural paradigms in one foul swoop.
I would put Live up there with MSP/Max , Reaktor , Metasynth and the Nord Modular in terms of ground breaking modern digital technology.
Plenty of rewire/host options for midi - and I'd rather have the option to pick and choose there myself also ...........

noisetonepause
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Post by noisetonepause » Sat Feb 28, 2004 8:29 pm

DAW = Digital AUDIO workstation.

Fekuck MIDI sequencing, I'm a musician, I play instruments, I don't operate a piano roll whatsit sequencer.

What Live needs to do is to add the few minor features that will turn it from 'the most inventive DAW around' to the 'definite DAW around'. It won't take much, but I don't think Ableton realise that they have a ProTools killer minus one per cent on their hands.

Group tracks, keyboard control, vertical zoom, improved performance and a few more things - minor things. That's all Live needs to rule the roost.

Of course, all the people that are used to Logic will prefer new versions of Logic to anything else. Musicians are a conservative bunch. This is an important point, but I don't think Ableton should conform to this. Their product is strong, and I'll support them as much as I can till do they *do* rule ze werld.

-Paws
Suit #1: I mean, have you got any insight as to why a bright boy like this would jeopardize the lives of millions?
Suit #2: No, sir, he says he does this sort of thing for fun.

heino

Post by heino » Sat Feb 28, 2004 8:58 pm

16 BIT wrote:But you are undoubtedly short sighted and have probably been making music and using music software for about 3 minutes.

Guess why I want Ableton to add midi?

To use it properly LIVE.
<snip ...>
ok, that was it for this thread.
its quite sad that this forum, dedicated to such a great program,
is just filled with 95% garbage and it seems to get worse and worse.
theres people using live LIVE with real instruments, to record audio
from for exmpl. a guitar 'in realtime' and mangle it.
its great for such things.
ever thought about that, mister "I'm-the-only-one-really-going-Live'
-cause-I-use-an-MPC" ???
i won't go into details concerning the 3 months remark,
but i can tell you, you would be surprised to know..... :lol: :lol: :lol:

pffffffhhh, smart people on here please stand up, no more
dj wildstyle crap please!!

till then

heino

::mic-minimal::
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Post by ::mic-minimal:: » Sat Feb 28, 2004 10:05 pm

the cat talking all the shit about midi had me until he started posting all that dumb shit about what he was doing with an mpc-3000 7 years ago, which i've used exstensively I might add, and the way you said Live users who don't want midi are just people using canned loops and shit....
man if you're so professional then grow the fuck up, if you go through the forum with open eyes you will see many many people who don't use midi and who create original compositions that are nothing short of creative. if you were doing what Live is doing years ago then I don't even know why you have live in the first place.

regarding midi implementation, if ableton does it they will do it their own way and it will be remarkable no doubt, and in that case I would welcome it.

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