My unbiased thoughts on Logic vs Live

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
Tarekith
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My unbiased thoughts on Logic vs Live

Post by Tarekith » Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:22 am

I've stayed away from the Logic versus Live thing more or less, cause it's a real hornets nest now that the price is so low. I don't think any of the major DAW makers can compete with Apple when it comes to price, Apple just got too may other forms of revenue to even try.

And I really don't think Live needs to ADD more content either, at least not based on the synths and content they've provided so far. Operator and Sampler are fun, but (for me at least), they just don't sound that good to be worth the price. Again, more than capable of making good sounds, but an FM synth is just not going to get that many people excited regardless of how integrated it is. Neat, fun, but sterile sounding and beyond most people's ability to program. Sampler is cool for warping things all crazy like, but I think Ableton really did it a disservice trying to compare it to things like X2, Kontakt, Halion, etc. In terms of a multi-timbral sampling machine, it just doesn't compare with those feature to feature, and requires a lot of rack building to even come close. Sampler should have been the upgrade for Simpler, with the focus purely on sound design and new ways of twisting audio, which is what it's really good at. Really good.

And then there's EIC. Well.... hmmm. It's a huge resource hog, doesn't really compete with other 3rd party libraries out there, and we've yet to really see the other additions to it that were advertised as 'coming soon' when it was released. I just don't think content is Ableton's specialty, or what makes them such a kick ass company. The last thing I want to see with live 7 is 20GB of loops, presets, and a new $200 synth.

I'd REALLY like to see Live go back to being a live tool, or shall I say, I'd like to see that once again be the development focus. There's enough there already if you want to use it as a DAW, easily justified by all the people here standing up for it an saying they will continue to use it for that regardless of what Apple does (including me, even though I too bought the Logic upgrade). It's time to once again put the focus on performance tools, and even some DJ tools, like it or not they have a huge following there. Not saying lose any new features, just let the way forward be driven by the stage and not the studio per se.

And yes, right now there's a LOT of Logic talk going on, which is more than expected and justified:

1. Logic is the premier DAW on the Mac platform, and it's the first major release since Apple bought Emagic. If Microsoft bought Sonar and released a new version considerably cheaper, there'd be just as much talk. It's not just an Apple thing, it's a huge corporation throwing their weight around.

2. It's been 3 years since the last major update for Logic. If Live went three years without an update (feels like it already :) ), you can bet forums everywhere would be alight with talk like this.

3. Many, many pro's use Logic as it was the main app for Mac's for so long, and unfortunately the last few years have been kinda buggy. Useable yes, but nowhere near as up to date feeling as the competition. So understandably people are happy that now their main tool is more stable, and the code has finally been revamped. And because so many pro's use it, of course it's going to get a lot more exposure in the press and on the net.

4. The price. Hate it all you want, but yes Logic is now insanely cheap considering all you get. The Apple Loops are very good, their synths and effects have always been very good, and you even get a revamped mastering app and a sound to picture composition tool included now. It's not fair to other software manufacturers that Apple has the ability to do this, but they did, and people are shocked and talking about it. Yes people will likely switch to Macs just for this, duh, that's the point. NO one ever said you had to choose one or the other, many people I know bought the update asap and still use Live daily, they now just have even more tools at their disposal for very little outlay. Sucks for some, good for other, make up your own mind where you stand and just be happy with the decision.

Having used Logic 8 since the day it was announced, let me say it's both a good and bad update to me. Yes the code and interface have been updated, and both are very welcome and well done IMO. However, it's still not the ProTools killer some would have hoped, nor will flocks of musicians suddenly find themselves in the garden of eden using it. Audio editing is still as painful as before IMO, you can move things with sample accuracy now (and thank god for absolute snap mode), but all editing is still regulated to the Sample Editor (which as no snap mode BTW), and you still need to be very wary of accidentally editing any audio used elsewhere in the project. Still no real destructive editing in the Arrange View. SX, DP, PT and likely Sonar are still better in this regards IMVHO. Just a small example that it's not a perfect DAW, and that it still lags behind the competition in some regards.

It looks new, and certainly the new features are nice, but once you learn where the old functions and such are in the new version, it still very much feels like Logic 7. Maybe not a bad thing for some, but not a huge leap forward for others. Just a reminder that even at $499, if it doesn't work well for the way you want to work, then who cares how much it costs, it's still not a good deal. If you're happy in Live and getting a lot done, awesome, let people talk about Logic and just keep working away doing your own thing. If on the other hand you are doing a lot of midi (for example), and you're starting to find Live constraining for this, well read the threads and make up your own mind before you try it.

Either way, keep an open mind and remember it's not the end of the world for you, Ableton, or your Windows PC. :)

beats me
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Post by beats me » Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:44 am

I love when you reach your breaking point with topics that are posted 10 million times and then post something intelligent that should just shut everybody up. I say should because it actually doesn't. I mean this with all sincerity. Between this and the mastering post I think you should get a prize, like a further $10 discount on Sampler :D

I've only used Logic Express 7 and that was for like a weekend. I spent the whole time just setting it up with the help from a tutorial DVD and then just went back to using Live. I didn't shun it though because of the difficulty. I did it because even with Live I spend way more time on writing then I do with detailed production. I still plan to get Logic 8 though because I think it will be a great addition when my focus goes more towards that end. It's always said you should listen to your mixes on different speakers. Why not also try out your tunes in different DAWs if you can do it.

What I would REALLY love to see is a side by side comparison of all available DAWs, and I don't mean just the basic comparisons but really thorough and detailed. All DAWs have some features that the others don't or in some cases just give the feature a different name. I think a really detailed comparison of DAWs on every level would help us all out....and I think you should be just the person to do it! Time to crack open your Microsoft Excel...or I guess you could now do it with Apple Numbers. (please nobody compare those)

Tarekith
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Post by Tarekith » Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:52 am

Lol, well I'm packing for a cross country move, so there's no way I'd have time. Nor would I really want to, I like writing music too you know! :)

One more point I forgot to make, another reason I think there's so much talk here about Logic recently:

No word about Live 7 yet.

I don't think anyone doubts that it's coming, just that this is the first time in a long time that they didn't announce anything at Summer NAMM. So, what else are we going to talk about? :lol: The sad thing is that likely the direction and feature set of Live 7 was finalized a LONG time ago, way before Logic 8 came on the scene. So either the Abe's release it relatively soon (if they planned to) and people are potentially unhappy it doesn't compete better, or they wait to add more features and people are upset that it's taking so long! You just can't win sometimes! :)

Then again who knows, maybe they exceed everyone's expectations on all counts and we can go on with talks about transvestite muslims who make youtube conspiracy theory videos about how the US is trying take over nepal for their snow rights.

snowtires
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Re: My unbiased thoughts on Logic vs Live

Post by snowtires » Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:10 am

Tarekith wrote:I'd REALLY like to see Live go back to being a live tool, or shall I say, I'd like to see that once again be the development focus. There's enough there already if you want to use it as a DAW, easily justified by all the people here standing up for it an saying they will continue to use it for that regardless of what Apple does (including me, even though I too bought the Logic upgrade). It's time to once again put the focus on performance tools, and even some DJ tools, like it or not they have a huge following there. Not saying lose any new features, just let the way forward be driven by the stage and not the studio per se.
but there are a LOT of people using live who don't use it as a live performance tool, should they be ignored, now they they have 'enough there?'

Tarekith
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Post by Tarekith » Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:34 am

Certainly not, but it's not like you can't still make awesome music with it as it is, as many people have already vocally spoken up about. I'm just saying that what Ableton does best, what made them stand out from the rest was not DAW features, but live performance features for computer based set ups. I personally think that more performance features will only strenghten the composing side myself. Music IS people performing in a way that lets pure emotion come through first and foremost.

If that means sitting in studio/bedroom/where ever and inputting notes one by one with a mouse to you, hey, awesome. I certainly spend a great deal of my time doing the exact same thing. But if we expand on the tools at our common disposal (computers, controllers, mixers) so that we can create even more expressful music as a result, we all benefit. To do that we need software that runs on these tools, or integrates them even better.

I want to see new ways to actually create and perform musical ideas in real time based on the gear that is most prevelant today. What you do with that power is up to you, be it entertaining in front of a live crowd, or writing to entertain people in whatever listening environment they are in (home, car, etc). Ableton were among the first to say hey, in the right hands something like a laptop CAN be used as a musical instrument to some extent (and I'm not talking about visually). They really approached it all from a new angle, and showed that it COULD be possible. I just think that no one has yet really hit on a way to combine all these unique midi controllers with an interface that can satisfy whatever needs people have to achieve the way THEY want to perform music. Much closer with Live yes, but there's more than can be done I think.

The partnership with Cycling 74 is a huge step forward, as it provides a possible frame work for much greater personalization of how we interact and set up our tools. I'm saying that THIS should be the focus of Live, not trying to be like every other DAW. Those tools are well established, and based on a paradigm that is already more or less set in stone, the linear time based construction aspect. If you're not going to match that feature for feature, it will always appear to be lacking on some aspect.

The alternative is to approach it differently, ala session view, customizeable and modular screen layouts, more comprehensive midi mapping, OSC support, anything to let people approach music making the way THEY want to (and with whatever external tools they want), and not the way the software inherently dictates it must be done. I think Live's on the right track, but it's going to be through performance based tools that it happens, not a 1 up game with the other DAW manufacturers.

MR Coogs
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Post by MR Coogs » Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:47 am

I'm not in favor of taking live in more of a live performance/Dj direction. There are plenty of those tools out there already, and frankly Dj'ing is a much over-hyped and very small market segment.

I'd guess a 100-1 ratio of wanna be djs to wannabe music producers and artists.

All Live needs is a good way to edit recoded material, which it sorely lacks as is.

And fix that god damned timing/delay stuff.

And throw in a half dozen synths, and samplers an a decent 24 channel drum machine. Or forget it.

And the cycling 74 partnership is a flash in the pan. If you've ever tried their plug-ins you know they look like crap and sound about the same.
Last edited by MR Coogs on Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Lots of gear. :)

kenporter
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Post by kenporter » Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:48 am

I love Live for its performance features. However, I too would like to see improvements when it comes to DAW features. I don't have very many wishes, just add offline processing, add a better sample editor, make Sampler capable of timestretching a sample the same way Live does, add a crossfade function to clips, and improve automation. That being said there are of course work arounds, but if you come from a DAW like Cubase you just miss those functions. However, when it comes to getting inspired and just doing music, Live is the sh*t!

Ken

condra
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Post by condra » Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:26 am

Apple have pissed off ze Germans. They will pay.

condra
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Post by condra » Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:27 am

Fifty quid off Sampler.


IN YOUR FACE APPLE!

...


oh.. :oops:

nowtime
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Post by nowtime » Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:33 am

MR Coogs wrote:I'm not in favor of taking live in more of a live performance/Dj direction. There are plenty of those tools out there already, and frankly Dj'ing is a much over-hyped and very small market segment.
When refering to a Live tool, I believe Tarekith is referring to Ableton Live being a musical instrument and not a DJ tool. There are NO other tools out there, and I'm in agreement that Ableton should focus on Live's realtime performance parameters. It could be taken very deeply to another level in it's ability to cater to those wanting to breathe life into music performances.

that means much more creative use of the power of Midi controllers and emphasis on GETTING OFF THE MOUSE. that also means much better emphasis on Live as a Drum Machine. Face it. Most users are into beat-oriented music.

Innovation in Live's abilities as a drum sampler could be taken into the stratosphere, especially around changing kits easily, powerfully and with stability. They basically need a powerful new drum machine. With emphasis on Live Performance problems.

And emphasis on Single Performance Sets coudl use a boost. Too many awkward workarounds, trying to get all your songs into one set.

Live Live!
Life is Good

Timur
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Post by Timur » Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:26 am

Exciting times, I am really eager to see where Live is going. Actually I need both, better integration of controllers and drum-sequencing and DAW tools. But if Live gives me the first I can live without the second, because I can export all tracks into another more specialized app then which will likely always be better at doing those things than Live. Yes, it costs money which we all lack, but the outcome will be better. And given that we are talking about several hundred bucks when talking about software whereas pro-level hardware often costs into the thousands it's still a good deal.

Tarekith: How do Live and Logic integrate/combine with each other? Can you compose in Live and render "All tracks" easily to import them into Logic? Or did you even try to rewire Live for DAW purposes? Do you still have to use Wavelab for audio editing? If they complement each other well then you're a winner! ;)

kent_sandvik
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Post by kent_sandvik » Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:40 am

Timur wrote:Exciting times, I am really eager to see where Live is going. Actually I need both, better integration of controllers and drum-sequencing and DAW tools. But if Live gives me the first I can live without the second, because I can export all tracks into another more specialized app then which will likely always be better at doing those things than Live. Yes, it costs money which we all lack, but the outcome will be better. And given that we are talking about several hundred bucks when talking about software whereas pro-level hardware often costs into the thousands it's still a good deal.

Tarekith: How do Live and Logic integrate/combine with each other? Can you compose in Live and render "All tracks" easily to import them into Logic? Or did you even try to rewire Live for DAW purposes? Do you still have to use Wavelab for audio editing? If they complement each other well then you're a winner! ;)
Logic Studio (i.e. the Logic Pro 8 full kit, not Express) comes with SoundTrack Pro 8 in case you want a separate audio editing application.

And yes, you could rewrite Logic 8 and Live, even if now it's much easier to do time stretching in Logic, so I personally have a less need to use Live for this purpose.

Yes, bring back *Live* into Ableton Live. :-). --Kent

Timur
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Post by Timur » Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:50 am

I didn't mean to ask if there is an audio-editor onboard. ;) I meant to ask if Tarekith still keeps Wavelab as his editor of choice to fulfill his quality needs or if the inbuild/packed editor(s) do that job now!?

Tarekith
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Post by Tarekith » Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:26 pm

I use Wavelab almost exclusively for my mastering work actually, I have to run it in parallels, which is a huge RAM hog, so integration with an OSX DAW isn't the best. Doable though. I'm really trying to get away from Wavelab so I can stay 100% in OSX though. I love it, but it's the only thing I need to mess with PArallels for. Been working as a beta tester with Wave Editor from Audiofile, which is a nice app, just taking me longer to get used to the layers based approach it uses than I expected. Probably will start using Logic for this kind of work, especially with Wave Burner (supposedly) more stable now. Honestly I haven't had time to try it myself yet, still playing with Logic in what little free time I have these days.

I'll be honest, when writing tunes I try and stay in one app if I can, I find it easier for me to stay focused, so I'm more likely to just deal with the workarounds in Live than go to an external editor (especially with the Edit button gone). In Logic, there's really no need to go to an external editor, you've got the Sample Editor right there already.

Rewire with Logic 8 and Live seems to work fine, though I am starting to see why people would want Logic to rewire TO Live now. There's time I'd just want to add some synth fro Logic in a Live project I'm working on. Easy enough to deal with though, I'd just keep the audio files in Live that are already there, recor dmy new synths in Logic as Live plays back, then Bounce the Logic synths as new audio files to import in Live later on.

I don't know, I try not to let limitations like this get to me when writing tunes, if I have an idea, I'm most likely to just chase after it no matter what little annoyances I have to deal with. It can be frustrating at times though sure.

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Post by forge » Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:26 pm

condra wrote:Fifty quid off Sampler.


IN YOUR FACE APPLE!

...


oh.. :oops:
:lol: :wink:

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