Ableton Forum

I'm not sure how much you guys & gals know about Peak Oil and the history of Suburbia, but I think its even more important than our current economic crisis. And they are linked through the mindset of the status-quo with "infinite growth" and "globalization".

Read more at my blog: http://infopatriots.blogspot.com/2008/0 ... urbia.html

Also, I found this post by james to be riveting, especially since I live in Las Vegas (currently, not for long!).

"On the Beach" by james howard kunstler

December 27, 2004
Where do people get the idea that Las Vegas is America's city of the future?

In their usual reality-resistant way, The New York Times ran a big front-page story in the Sunday business section on all the wow-wee new development being planned for that city. The thrust of the story is that the action in Vegas has shifted from gambling to luxury housing, from "themed" hotel-casinos like Mandalay Bay and the Venetian to condominium towers, in the apparent belief that Las Vegas will become an irresistible magnet for the next wave of rich retirees -- and that there will be a more or less endless supply of them. Donald Trump is about to put up -- what else? -- the tallest building in Vegas. And a bloated corporate organism named MGM-Mirage, which already owns half a dozen of the biggest themed casinos, is about to put up a 66-acre mega condo tower project on the celebrated "strip."

It's sad to note that both businessmen and the newspapers analyzing their activities both subscribe to such a foolish and clueless vision of the future. Here's what the real score is with Las Vegas:

The city is a pathological hypertrophic suburbanoid anomaly in the middle of a desert wasteland, analogous to a deadly tumor growing in a remote part of a person's body, say the colon. The tumor of Las Vegas was established for the same reason that a tumor occurs in a body: exposure to toxins and broken DNA. In the case of Las Vegas, the main toxin has been a half-century of cheap energy. The broken DNA is present in the animating principle behind the gambling mecca, the idea that it is possible to get something for nothing. If anything, the destiny of Las Vegas is to dry up and blow away, sooner rather than later. Here's why:

-- The global oil production peak will put an end to cheap oil and economies that depend on it. That means the end of things like casual visitors motoring in from Southern California and Phoenix. It means the evaporation of hallucinated value in abstract financial rackets like derivative-based hedge funds. It means far less disposable wealth among the population in general, and for many baby boomers it probably means the end of hope that their retirement will be funded by pensions and stock options. It means the end to cheap air conditioning and bargain hotel rates. It means bankrupt airlines.

-- The water situation in Las Vegas is dire. The city has absolutely no capacity left for expansion under any circumstances. What's more, Lake Mead, the impoundment behind Hoover Dam, is down to historically low levels, dropping a foot per week lately, and may soon fall so low that the turbine intakes on Hoover Dam no longer operate, meaning goodbye electric generating capacity. The Colorado River's flow in 2004 was 70 percent below average, and the region was gripped by a years-long drought. Climatologists agree, in fact, that the desert southwest has actually been enjoying two comparatively wet centuries and is now reverting to a drier cycle. Global warming could make it much worse.

-- As industrial agriculture withers, places in America than can't grow a substantial amount of their own food will be fucked.

The last thing that the American future will be about is mega-cities in the desert supported by lifelines of cheap oil, cheap electricity, cheap air conditioning, cheap diverted water, and cheap long-range transportation and the pissing away of financial resources for "excitement." Of course, when your national mythology is based on the idea that it is possible to get something for nothing, you'll believe anything.

The businessmen in Las Vegas and the Times business reporters are like the clueless westerners gamboling on the beach in Phuket with a tidal wave silently bearing down on them. Only in this case the wave is a permanent global energy crisis. When the wave lands in Las Vegas, the excitement will be over.

zstowasser wrote:

I'm not sure how much you guys & gals know about Peal Oil and the history of Suburbia

Actually never heard about it. Is it plant or vege based?

suburbia was probably one of mans most horrid inventions,,
I'm living in the middle of that hell right now,,
i'm at the point where if i where a wolf caught in a trap i would gnaw my own leg off to get away,,

gjm wrote:zstowasser wrote:

I'm not sure how much you guys & gals know about Peal Oil and the history of Suburbia

Actually never heard about it. Is it plant or vege based?

No its user error based HEH.

Homebelly wrote:

suburbia was probably one of mans most horrid inventions,,

I don't think it was invented per se, more like evolved as a matter of survial. There is often strength in numbers.

I'm living in the middle of that hell right now,,

Wow. My little bit of suburbia is a slice of heaven!

i'm at the point where if i where a wolf caught in a trap i would gnaw my own leg off to get away,,

Wow again. I'd poke one of my eyes out to stay!

Suburbia is the way of the future, reinvented of course.

GJM - What do you think about New Urbanism? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Urbanism
Or New Pedestrianism - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Pedestrianism

What do you like about suburbia and how can it be saved?

I don't like the suburban lifestyle, it's too separated and dehumanizing. I look forward to living in a small, walkable town with lots of open space for growing our own food for the community. We'd be eating healthier and the obesity problem would start to go away as people rode bikes and walked more.

zstowasser wrote: And they are linked through the mindset of the status-quo ....

there they are again! they must be quite active these days

rockin all over the world

gjm wrote: I don't think it was invented per se, more like evolved as a matter of survial. There is often strength in numbers.

Oh if this where true,,
But allas no,,
people have always lived on the outskirts of cities,, thats true.
But the idea of suburbia that we have was most definitely invented, and also planed and developed using some very specific ideas,,
Another really bad idea from the same period was the development of high rise housing in the UK and the Projects in some of the bigger US cities.

so i watched the preview for this docu and also went to the blog from the posted link. in the blog there is a seminar video (from the guy who made these films)?
in the video he is saying how basically america looks like crap, our houses look like crap and we do not socialize at all wich i totally agree with but, the thing i never seen in any of the video's was a solution.
whats the fucking solution?
isnt it a little to late to reconstruct are cities?
stop driving cars?
its to late for this shit.
i cant afford to just trash my house and build a new community so i can ride my bike and eat vegetables.
all i got out of it was "shit is going to hit the fan soon and we are doomed"
shit hit the fan along time ago and its to late to try to reconstruct the whole country.

gjm wrote:

I don't think it was invented per se, more like evolved as a matter of survial. There is often strength in numbers.

Homebelly wrote:

Oh if this where true,,
But allas no,,
people have always lived on the outskirts of cities,, thats true.
But the idea of suburbia that we have was most definitely invented, and also planed and developed using some very specific ideas,,
Another really bad idea from the same period was the development of high rise housing in the UK and the Projects in some of the bigger US cities.

The word Suburbia refers to a very broad range of expressions of the way that many cultures have dveloped over time. What we, You and I that is, have here in NZ is in some respects quite different to the expressions of suburbia in other parts of the world. My comment about evolvement was meant to high light the fact that there have been times in history when the 'sprawl' was not subject to very much thinking or planning. It was very loose. It was often developer driven with profits being No1. Some of the very specific ideas that may have been used were simply not about the good of the population base. Portions of 'suburbia' exists as the result of profit driven business people rather than town planers who were doing what they thought was the best for the people.
I agree with you that there was some planning involved. Pure systamatic invention for the good of the people, no.

nathannn wrote:its to late for this shit.
i cant afford to just trash my house and build a new community so i can ride my bike and eat vegetables.

Good point. I do think that if our govt installed more high speed rails (like the rest of the friggin developed WORLD) and people did a little more planning before making a trip now and then, we could avoid much of the sickening traffic and needless SUV's (with one person inside) oil consumption. And guess what, without having to totally rebuild the whole country infrastructure all over again. If more alternatives to driving (public transportation) were provided, eventually the suburbs would evolve from bedroom communities into little mini-cities and upstart business centers of activity.

And I don't know where this mentality in the last 10 years came from that every family of 4 needs a 2000+sq ft house. Just to fill it up with stuff?! If people, trashed/recycled their useless Wal-mart disposable junk they got lying around, it would save them one heck of a lot of living space. Then they'd need less than half that amt of space and would be able to move to the city for practically the same cost. In addition, all their utilities like heat, would go down because less space. They'd also save time and/or money by not mowing lawns or paying someone to mow them.

Or they could live near the city and have a lower cost of living than they did in the suburbs, if they sold their car too and made an oath to themselves never to waste money buying stuff they don't need from Wal-mart again.

zstowasser wrote:

GJM - What do you think about New Urbanism?

Wow. Big topic. My initial gut feeling is that this kind of thinking is yet another way to control the population base. In the end, town planners and developers and city councils are the winners. Town councils are businesses too. They make alot of their budget requirements by charging the people in various ways to do business or live in their jurisdiction. They can see that concrete jungles with heavy populations create all sorts of issues that stretch them. Thinning it out a little might help. The problem is that its mostly about architecural futurists who don't know what its like to not graduate from high school because, in actual fact you work best with your hands and not your head. Not everyone fits into the box of mom, pop, two kids (stagnant population growth at best) able to work from home in a net based universe! Then on top of that, grow decent amount of food to make it economically worth while and live peacefully with their neighbour! Sometimes you have neighbours that don't want to live peacfully with you. So I have doubts about "New Urbanism."

nathannn wrote:so i watched the preview for this docu and also went to the blog from the posted link. in the blog there is a seminar video (from the guy who made these films)?
in the video he is saying how basically america looks like crap, our houses look like crap and we do not socialize at all wich i totally agree with but, the thing i never seen in any of the video's was a solution.
whats the fucking solution?
isnt it a little to late to reconstruct are cities?
stop driving cars?
its to late for this shit.
i cant afford to just trash my house and build a new community so i can ride my bike and eat vegetables.
all i got out of it was "shit is going to hit the fan soon and we are doomed"
shit hit the fan along time ago and its to late to try to reconstruct the whole country.

Ya they're called "Doomers". They tend to be pessimistic, but good for waking people up to what is possible - if we don't act. "better safe than sorry" or "prepare for the worst, hope for the best"

As for solutions, there are many, but not one size fits all. In the film "escape from suburbia" they go into solutions with examples from other cities - including willits, ca

We'll need to do anything and everything to transition out of oil.

I don't have all the answers, but I'm learning as much as I can and will be dedicating the next year to this.

A good site to start is http://www.postcarbon.org/

btw james didn't make the movies, he is just featured in them. that presentation is not the best way to introduce yourself to the subject! the films are better.

Another video to see the bigger picture on why america is in the middle east and why check out Michael Ruppert's video "The truth and lies of 9/11", he is another influential person in the Peak Oil topic.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &plindex=0

My personal view is that a version of suburbia can survive and flourish. It has to do with the growing awareness around the world that you can look to the skills and products within your community for varying amounts of sustainability. Look Local. (Still in many ways pie in the sky). Here in New Zealand I am offered Californian oranges. They taste like shit most of the time. Part of the reason they are here though is because of international trade agreements. I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine. They are not here because they are good. They are here because someones making a buck.

I have recently had a profound shift in my thinking about doing business. I now work from home, by myself. I used to have a factory and 12 staff in a manufacturing sector taking advantage of the international trading environment. I bought into the concept of the global market place. However, today my client base is within a 20km radius of where I live. I just sold one of my cars. Only one now. I hardly drive anywhere now. The problem is that our so called clean and green goverment, has made it significantly difficult to 'get ahead' in a reasonable way for the family unit. I have a vege garden, but its fcukin hard work and takes a heap of time. In the developed world at least, time is money.

I have no answers for the big picture. I just know that my little slice of suburbia works for me, that I am exercising some responsibilty with what I have, and that I am happy. My neighbours are a different story. I am more than willing to talk to people about what I do and why, but I do not expect anyone to follow me. Suburbia (my locale) is good for me.