Ableton Forum

Hi Guys,

I have been mastering some songs that I recorded in Ableton and have come across a bit of a mystery that I was wondering if anyone had any expert input on.

When I record the songs and mix them they certainly do not clip the master buss. When I play them back on my computer they do not clip.

However, if I master them with something like Waves L2 or PSP Vintage Warmer compressers I find that even though I have a Brickwall Limter on, the tracks still distort if the Brickwall is set to 0DB as the limit. In fact the only way for them not to distort is to set the Brickwall limiter limit to -4DB.

Then I realised that if I monitor through my EMU 0404 USB soundcard, the tracks do not distort if I master with the limiter set to 0db.

So I looked at my Windows soundcard volume properties and noticed that there are two volume levels for audio. A MASTER VOLUME, and WAVE VOLUME. You guys should all have the same. Along with 'CD VOLUME' etc.

When WAVE volume is turned up more than half, regardless of how loud the MASTER VOLUME is turned up, I find that tracks mastered to 0DB distort. When they are mastered to -4DB they do not.

So my questions are:

-Does Windows WAVE volume, add gain (rather than volume) to the signal, so that tracks mastered to 0DB are being pushed over? (My EMU soundcard plays back the tracks undistorted because there is only a main volume on the card). I imagine that it is adding gain in a similar way to a graphic equaliser would. Hence my mixes need -4db of headroom to survive this.

-If windows WAVE volume is adding gain. Why do commercial MP3s not distort as harshly as my mixes are distorting when the WAVE volume is maxed. My mixes are crackling heavily (especially during guitar and bass heavy sections) where as commercial releases feature very little if any break up?

any input is appreciated. I can assure I am not clipping when recording or mixing, as my unmastered mixes do not break up when I max the WAVE volume on windows media propeties.

thanks
Mark

One thing with Vintage Warmer. If you "mix" setting on VW isn't at 100% it is possible for the signal that comes out to clip. It's because the signal coming into VW is fed in parallel through the device, the unaffected signal and the signal that's going through the limiter. So if your mix is at 50%, then only half the signal is being affected by the limiter.

thanks for the tip but my VW is at 100%

anyone?

If you have an EMu 0404 working fine (a nice soundcard btw), why are you even bothering with Windows settings and such?

just as an fyi, this really isn't an Ableton question. It's a Windows Audio question, you may want to look for a WinAudio bbs if no answer here.

The reason it worries me is because most people play their music back on their laptop and I want my mixes to be compatible. I am just really scratching my head on this.

Could it be that most modern mixes mastered to 0db are pushed into overload by any gain added by either software EQ or software gain via way of an additional volume control? (in this case the WAV volume).

The simple answer is *dont* have your limiter set to 0db, instead have it set a little below that.

I never have mine set higher than -0.1dBfs, and TBH usuall have it set to about -0.3dBfs.

Also consider the material you are using, for example, if the peak level is actually determined by a kick drum that was sampled from allready mastered and brickwalled material, then you are screwed. The only way to recovered it is to resample the kick through the analog domain (or an analog reconstruction plugin, maybe a low pass filter would do it) with at least 6dB (or more) of headroom (ie dont let the analog out peaks rise about -6dBfs or so).

The problem is the clipping causes overshoots when converted from digital to analog - and double clipping only make sit all much worse, and then add mp3 and various other forms of lossy compression and you are nearly guaranteed to get exactly what you are getting.

The problem isnt just down to the end result of your mix, but can be caused anywhere in the digital signal chain, where chipped signals occur, and the peak level of those clipped signals brings them back up 0dBfs again. anyone who uses samples alot has probably hit that at some time or other unless they maintain analog signal paths with plenty of headroom for one reason or another, also anyone doing mashups, remixes, mix sets etc from previous mastered material and then 'mastering' it again is allmost guaranteed to hit it at some time.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Thing is, I havn't been using any samples or previously mastered material. I find I have master at least -4db to get material which doesn't distort badly with any form of music player EQ being increased, or with WAV volume increased.

low quality speakers or low quality audio compression can actually cause clipping on audio that doesn't even reach 0dBfs (long explanation in Bob Katz)

low quality speakers can obviously distort when overdriven. maybe you are just giving them more bass than they can handle.

What happens when you master at 0dBfs, then play back through your crappy builtin soundcard and turn the volume down a bit -- either at the "wave volume" setting of the card, or Windows media player's volume (~-4dB)? Does the distortion go away??

Also, make sure whatever MP3 player you're using doesn't have any EQ settings turned on, or like Sound Enhancer in iTunes.

thanks guys I will investigate and let you know