Ableton Forum

Groove Templates?

If you had delved into Cubase SX3 in any depth you would surely have noticed several things to it's advantage.

'Adding Polish' is usually achieved by dedicated mastering plugins, so buy the plugins and Live is as good a host for them as any other DAW. Live's rendering of audio is just as good as anything else out there.

Advantages for Cubase - Crossfading of audio clips on arrangement, folder tracks, better MIDI / drum editing, not hampered by the 128 parameter limit, up to 3 resizeable mixer windows, proper dual monitor support with arrangement on one screen and mixing view on the other. Much more extensive video options, Offline processing with full history and editable steps is also good for freeing up CPU on audio tracks. Cubase is also less CPU intensive, so you can get higher track and plugin counts.

Then again, Live has many advantages too. And given the choice, it wins hands down over Cubase and other linear DAWS for me.

I bought cubase for a few reasons.

I start out in live, composing and doing rough arrangements in the session view, then record to arrange view and do the lower level editing and things, last changes etcettera. In session view almost all sounds are designed, and spiced with effects (which are then, if needed, automated in arrangement manually using automation)

I mix a little on the way, however after so much time there its refreshing to go to something else. I like to reset all faders and bounce all the tracks, then do a bottom up mix in another environment.

Then there is the little thing of cubase's fader grovings, the very clear faders and so on. The mixer view in cubase is simply wow.

The sound itself won't be better but it just feels like you do something else you know, and music is a lot about feelings. I feel comfortable switching environments for the mixing.

I just find the mixer view in Cubase easier to overlook and nicer to use (again, i tend to mix in groups and instead of having to create subgroups i can just select a lot of faders and group them together, then move them keeping their respective levels). Grouping things with sub-busses is as big a breeze as in live no trouble there.


Live's way of working with the way i can go in non-linearity just beats everything though. But i guess this way i get a bit from both worlds, and i like that.

I'll just say that for me, Live lacks a lot of "basic daw functionality" which I am used to in other apps. A short list off the top of my head would include no track folders, no crossfades/fade in-out and clip overlap, nonsensical key commands with limited ability to customize, can't select multiple non-contiguous clips across different tracks, no Rewind button, no multiple takes/lanes recording, no per-clip effects, no customizeable mousewheel zooming etc...

Some of these may seem small, but some of these are huge and I know I'm forgetting some. Live's a fun and creative tool, but it can't compare to the "trad daws" so long as it lacks the aforementioned features IMO. But that's ok, as being traditional is not what Live's about. I'd love it if could be the best of both worlds, but it's got a long ways to go.

I always notice how lightening fast Reaper feels when I'm working in this way. But Reaper doesn't have a Session view, so it's all relative.

Rave wrote:I ask because I have read that Ableton doesn't cut it for adding polish to projects.

Never believe what you read.



...except me, of course.

Rave wrote:What can other DAWs like Cubase and Logic offer for finishing projects that Ableton can't.

I'm a long time Tracktion user and only recently got into Live. While Live is great in so many ways, there are some things that make traditional vocal or guitar tracking much more pleasing in Tracktion:

1. One click/keystroke recording. If you blow the take you only need another two keystrokes to abort the recording, put the file to the trash and start a new recording.

2. Crossfading of audio clips. I was really surprised when I found out Live couldn't do that and to me it's its worst shortcoming.

3. Folder Tracks are great for organizing larger projects.

XL

Track icons. Best feature in the universe. Guys are visual. Maybe chicks like squinting at track names but I don't.

Preset smooth fade types.

Grrove templates
Powerful and easier midi editing
Sysex, NRPN, external instrument and fx support that actually supports automations
tracks folders and hiding
Drum maps - ie where you can set the names of the drum sounds for *any* plugins or hardware drum machine
more than just stereo - mono, quad, 5.1, 7.1 etc
mp3 export
real time exports
Separate and multiple mixer and workspace views
Overlapping clips *in the same track* allowing crossfades for eg
Multiple takes in a single track - just loop and hit record and stack them, easy to switch between them and cut out the best from each - no copying clips between each take and preparing for the next one manually.
Generally much easier to edit automations. (Yes - this improved alot with live 7 as at least now you can see more than one at a time)
Simple export of selected stems

And that without even really thinking about it.

What live offers that makes it worth tolerating the loss of all those features is unrestricted audio and midi routing, session view and racks.

Thats it for studio use.

Then there is live use - well I allready covered that - sesion view and easy midi assignments etc *so long as* what you want to assign to is a clip or an automation - you cant assign to a CC on a hardware synth directly. (Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!)


Forget the plugins - the equivalent is available in other packages, so while its a good collection and most of not all are usful, especially for electronics music, they aint that special.

Is the trade off worth it - for creation yes - for getting ideas together quicklyy - yes. Would I record a band with it and produce a mix for them with it - very unlikely.

TBH - the main reason I stay in live end to end is because it is so much hassle to export selected stems and mix them in something that has better workflow - once you are past the creative stage and have an arrangement, bounced audio etc and just need to mix it with good metering etc, then Live becomes a liability unless you need all of its routing flexibility (which TBH, I often do).

offline processing, proper surround support, good metering, fades, automation curves amongst other things (e.g. bundled plugs!) this is why i'm saving for cubase4!

If you're on a Mac, you should seriously consider Digital Performer. Version 6 is about to be released and it looks to be the best version yet.

6 comes with several VI's, (drum machine, Bassline synth, sampler, FM synth, a new compressor fashioned after the UAD 1176, a free convolution reverb with 100's of IR's).

IMHO the best DAW out there. I use LIVE as a rewire slave within DP and get the best of both worlds.

aeon wrote:offline processing, proper surround support, good metering, fades, automation curves amongst other things (e.g. bundled plugs!) this is why i'm saving for cubase4!

you know that you can drag the meters larger in Ableton right?
To see the markings and the peak levels.
I only mention it because many people don't know this.

Angstrom wrote: I only mention it because many people don't know this.

Ableton have this terrible habit of introducing features to almost no fanfare and leaving it up to users to figure it out for themselves

Angstrom: i do, and many thanks

i've also experimented with Sonalksis G-Meter (is that what it's called? something st00pid anyway). nonetheless i do find the Cubase mixer window a lovelier place to be... it's a feeling thing as much as a spec thing.

forgot to mention one of the most pressing reasons for neglecting 7 and springing for steinberg - almost everyone i want to collaborate with uses Cubase, the stupid fucks

musiker01 wrote:I'm a long time Tracktion user and only recently got into Live. While Live is great in so many ways, there are some things that make traditional vocal or guitar tracking much more pleasing in Tracktion:

1. One click/keystroke recording. If you blow the take you only need another two keystrokes to abort the recording, put the file to the trash and start a new recording.

I have never used Tracktion myself however I feel the above is slightly unfair towards Ableton. The Key mapping ability of Ableton is so flexible and efficient I don't understand how you can record faster. It only takes a single keystroke to arm a track and the same to deactivate it!

Anyway, I agree with a few opinions such as crossfading and the rewind button. I don't see what track folders give to a project. I also don't see why anone would need to use Sysex nowadays. Jamester also mentiones that you can't have per-clip effects which is not entirely true. You can stack all effects you want on a channel and automate the device-on/off for every clip separately.

To my opinion Ableton offers the 'best' workflow in the market of DAWs. 'Best workflow' to me means it's faster, organised, makes sense and with no compromises. Just think about the internal browser and how windows such as the plugins, folders and the devices are layed out, how fast you can drop effects and how fast you can browse between them. Also think about the key mapping function, the graphical automations and how flexible audio warping is and how easy you do things such as reversing loops and changing the pitch. Personally I think there is a lot of 'bureaucracy' in Cubase and the day I bought Live, Cubase died.

On the other hand I haven't played with Cubase, Sonar, Cakewalk or Digital Performer for many many years and have no idea where they've gone from then but I do honestly believe that Ableton Live is a joy to use and can be used both as a creative tool and a traditional DAW.


sp.