Ableton Forum

spend x hours of tests and research on the facts in regarding color change in eq3, auto leveling of the gain of mp3 tracks (auto gain) and the master limiting of live as for djing/live performances.

i will post them now here and hopefully it will help all users here to use it as a resume of all and find a definitive conclusion/help:

* eq3 thing:

eq3: it does color the sound (already just after loading/activating without changing values) but the kills seem good

eq8: it does not color the sound but it seems hard to let it become/behave like a eq3, even with racks/ .adg´s i´ve found in forums:

- Jeremy Jive's DJ EQ - Full-v4.1.adg:
right after loading/activating it alters the volume (so it´s difficult to say if it also colors the sound, i assume yes, since it´s values are not flat)

- DJEQ.adg:
right after loading it alters the volume (maybe also the color ?)

- EQ3 Wannabee - Live7.adg:
right after loading it alters the volume (maybe also the color ?)

- Sonalksis_EQ_JJ_No_TBK.adg:
right after loading it alters the volume (maybe also the color ?)

somebody has a preset for eq 8 making it behave like an eq 3 but without changing the color of the sound ?
maybe even with kill switches doing the same good work as the ones in eq 3 (at the moment i m using a deactivated eq 3 with kill switch on and activate the eq 3 just for killing).

as for commercial or free vst plugs (i use a mac) i found this ones:

- LSS DJeq:
right after loading/activating it changes the volume (maybe also the color, as it changes the volume it´s quite difficult to say) and it seems that the volume change (as for the level meters) is similar/the same as when loading eq 3 so i assume it is the same as eq 3 but with a different gui and the 0db setting just in the middle of the knobs

- TRackS1.xEqualizer:
seems not changing the color but has 4 knobs and is so unusable for me and i don´t know how to make it behave like eq 3

- Sonalksis: which is the eq 3 vst of sonalksis ? found just 4 channel eq´s there... Tarekith, which Sonalksis EQ are you talking about ?

somebody knows a good commercial or free eq 3 which does exactly the same as eq 3 but without changing the sound color ?


* auto gain:

- there is no autogain in live 7 (there is one in traktor for example and it works great !)

- there is no plugin available which does this job (nor commercial and nor free vst)

- tools like mp3gain are not doing the job right

- volume has to be set with utility (gain) and/or within clip gain after applying tarekith´s guide to leveling

- some people talking of "platinum notes", but there is no "trial" version available for this tool

- use a limiter on the master channel (somebody can tell me which ? free or commercial. and, which setting do i have to make if i only want the limiter to prevent clipping on the master ?


* master limiting and making ableton sound good like a djm or turntable:

- use "complex" warp mode or better "re-pitch" when not needing tempo changes more than +/- 1bpm

- use "HQ" setting in clip on samples (and use high quality mp3´s

- use VW and BBE on master to compensate for transient degradation and get back the boost (i do not own BBE but it seems strange to me that we need this two plugins to have good sound (or sound that comes near to sound from cd players) on using ableton for dj gigs.
but i have to admit, that even using quite good soundcards (like echo dj or kore) and playing a track on ableton with re-pitch setting and 0 pitch i never get the punch and/or quality than when playing the same mp3 file as an audio cd on a pioneer cdj on the same sound system, so something or somewhere there must be a lost of information and/or level...

Jeremy Jive's DJ EQ - Full-v4.1.adg:
Could you let me know where I can download it for test?
At the moment I've only tested Tarekith DJ EFX which has some good stuff,
but it's still not possible to mix in a club with those, as you can't really kill lo mid or hi's with it.

Has anybody found a workaround for the eq 3 or is there a vst that doesn't color the sound or add gain? I'm also clipping when warping in complex or complex pro. Somebody has to have found an alternative to this by now? Any help would be much appreciated.

eq3 has been known to color the sound for many years, hence the release of EQ8 years ago. or you can look at it in that EQ3 was designed to color the sound just like a common DJ mixer's EQ colors the sound, some like it, some don't. Live is, after all, part live performance tool, it's not ALL about production.

EQ8 is transparent until the filters are applied.

workaround for complex or complex pro warping modes is to try other warping modes.

clipping? turn it down? or what am I missing?

Thanks for the quick reply!

The eq 3 adds extra gain that clips the channel when the fader is at 0. There has to be an alternative to the eq 8. I'm haven't found a way to use the EQ 8 as a DJ eq. There's no way to completely cut each band when using three/four bands assigned to controller knobs.

I don't want to warp in beats or re-pitch. I want more control over my tempo changes. Complex and Complex pro add transients to the audio that make it clip when it should be sitting at 0. There has to be a solution to both of these issues by now.

EQ 3.8:

http://tarekith.com/assets/TarekithDJEFXv8.zip

The Sonalksis one you're talking about is SV517.

Dave Sweeten wrote:The eq 3 adds extra gain that clips the channel when the fader is at 0.

clips and goes into the red are two different things when it comes to TRACKS in Live (not the Master.)
clips have over 60dB of headroom, you're not clipping, you're just going into the red a bit, nothing wrong with that, on tracks.

There's no way to completely cut each band when using three/four bands assigned to controller knobs.

do I get a cookie if I can find one? I don't have Live in front of me to try anything ATM.

Thanks for the link Terekith!

Tone Deft wrote: clips and goes into the red are two different things when it comes to TRACKS in Live (not the Master.)
clips have over 60dB of headroom, you're not clipping, you're just going into the red a bit, nothing wrong with that, on tracks.

I don't understand why you would want to go over 0 on the channel if it's going to clip the master. If you have a limiter on the master, (which I do) the music will be over-limited and will lose detail and punchyness. I don't want that.

do I get a cookie if I can find one? I don't have Live in front of me to try anything ATM.

That would be dope! Please let me know if you do.

I don't put a limiter on the Master track. I generally end up with my master 10-20dB down, maybe more.

Tarekith did a great writeup on gain structures in Live. IMO what this area comes down to is
- keep your tracks hot, or rather don't keep the volumes low, rise them up above the noise floor.
- going too far into the red just makes the meter less legible. if they're offscreen too much (fully red) how much info are you really getting from the meters?

btw one tip I LOVE is that if you hold control and hit one of those circles that shows the track's peak, they ALL reset. if you don't see them, expand the window around your track faders, up and wider.


I'll play with the EQs tonight, I'm just gonna watch the Tour De France replay and goof off, will have time to kill. Tarekith produces, DJs and makes little Live preset widgets to get around some of these issues, check his stuff out, he gets it.

Tone Deft wrote:I don't put a limiter on the Master track. I generally end up with my master 10-20dB down, maybe more.

Do you use a utility plug for that? I've been told that reducing the master fader in ableton reduces the bit depth. Also, just good practice for gain staging, as I was taught in school.

Tarekith did a great writeup on gain structures in Live. IMO what this area comes down to is
- keep your tracks hot, or rather don't keep the volumes low, rise them up above the noise floor.
- going too far into the red just makes the meter less legible. if they're offscreen too much (fully red) how much info are you really getting from the meters?

I read that a while back it's actually how I've been doing it. I just don't want anything going over 0 and I want to keep the master fader at 0.

I'll play with the EQs tonight, I'm just gonna watch the Tour De France replay and goof off, will have time to kill. Tarekith produces, DJs and makes little Live preset widgets to get around some of these issues, check his stuff out, he gets it.

Cool. Yeah, I just loaded Terekith's EQ 3.8 v2 and it looks like it doesn't add any gain. Awesome!

Dave Sweeten wrote:Do you use a utility plug for that?

nope, I just set the Master at -10dB or whatever.

I've been told that reducing the master fader in ableton reduces the bit depth. Also, just good practice for gain staging, as I was taught in school.

not true. bit depth relates to dynamic range and if you're not using the full dynamic range then you're effectively throwing away bits. BUT when you normalize when you render you're using those 'louder' bits again. BUT normalization raises everything, including the noise floor, not good.

I get my tracks nice and hot, lower the Master fader, reset the peak meters, play the song and then go back and adjust accordingly. I don't need a lot or any normalization, I do apply it but I've never checked out just what it did.

Tarekith did a great writeup on gain structures in Live. IMO what this area comes down to is
- keep your tracks hot, or rather don't keep the volumes low, rise them up above the noise floor.
- going too far into the red just makes the meter less legible. if they're offscreen too much (fully red) how much info are you really getting from the meters?

I read that a while back it's actually how I've been doing it. I just don't want anything going over 0 and I want to keep the master fader at 0.

no need to keep the Master at 0, read some Tarekith writeups, I believe he'd say the same thing.

Cool. Yeah, I just loaded Terekith's EQ 3.8 v2 and it looks like it doesn't add any gain. Awesome!

glad it worked.


overall do what works best for you. experiment with what you were taught vs. where you can do things differently in Live. I sense that some of the things you were taught were hardware based. with software there are many many ways to 'cheat' around hardware limitations. it's like taking a traditional mixer and using it inside The Matrix, the traditional rules don't always apply.

you'll be fine, I'm sure.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to all this. This info has all helped a lot. If the master fader doesn't decrease the bit depth, then I'm gonna turn it down. I'll be experimenting as always and post anything I may come up with.