Ableton Forum

hey,

is there a way to pan between pair of front and back monitors in live on a individual track. I can almost do it with crossfader and sends,
but it pans all my tracks, which sounds boring. anybody using 4 channel surround in live?

cheers

I do quad DJing.

Instead of the crossfader, I use a combination of pan and send levels on each track. I've got a number of dummy clips that automate the pan and send levels that I launch with buttons or FCB1010 footswitches, or embedded in the scene. The automation makes it easy to do 360 swooping pans, etc. There are 6 track pan and send levels set to BCR2000 rotary encoders, too.

It would definitely be easier with a proper quad panning control!

hmm, I tried to do it with two sends, but i get this effect, when sound is not as loud in the center as it is in the front or the back.

is it possible to use dummy clips when I'm routing audio from sequencer, if so could you explain a bit more how you use them?

thanks

I mix in discreet quad, with each speaker receiving unique signals (as distinct from using 2 pairs of stereo speakers). I have explored a few ways to do this in Live.

My first method is with sends:
4 sends to 4 speakers: these return channels are routed to 4 mono outputs of an RME Multiface I/O, then out to a mixer, & from there to 4 speakers. These are my main output busses.

The 4 sends are mapped to 4 knobs on a MIDI controller. This way each channel can be manually assigned &/or panned to any & all speakers using the knobs on a couple of Drehbank MIDI controllers.

I have an additional 4 sends for 4 effects returns, each containing a variety of effects. These return channels are then sent via the first 4 sends to the 4 speakers. These returns also have Live’s External Audio Effect to route audio via the RME out to & back from external effects.

Because Live sums stereo source material when sent out through the mono outputs, I also have 4 sends who’s return channels are assigned to stereo outputs: 1/2 panned left, 1/2 panned right; 3/4 panned left, 3/4 panned right. These are used for when I want to maintain the stereo separation of source material.

So each channel has:
- 4 sends/knobs to speakers (A, C, E, G)
- 4 sends/knobs to internal & external effects (B, D, F, H)
- 4 sends/knobs to stereo outputs, can be used dry or with effects (I, J, K, L)

This makes for a very flexible system, given the limitations of Live, & my old PowerBook 1.5GHz laptop (to be replaced in the near future –probably revise some things when I have more power at my disposal & can use more effects).

Since this first system is primarily designed for performance & improv work, it was important that the design was very simple & visual: I can look at the screen & see what speaker(s) each channel is sending sound to. And I can see the exact same info on my MIDI controllers. I can mix without looking at the screen if I choose to because the visual information is identical: 2 columns of 4 knobs per channel: column A,C,E, G for dry; column B, D, F, H for effects. The stereo I, J, K, L channels are currently unmapped to any MIDI controller.

For a number of reasons, I chose to limit my track count to 12. It’s enough to let me build up a fairly thick sonic brew, but simple enough to manage, & fits my various MIDI controllers well.


My second method: sends, racks, chains
Iis an extension of the first method, which includes racks & chains in association with the External Audio Effect. Without going into detail, I can pan audio from speaker to speaker with one knob. But unless I make a ton of chains this is limited panning.

One of the major drawbacks of using this second method is that it is less visual: while I can see the speaker assignments in the MIDI controllers, I can not see them all at once in the Session view, because some speaker assignments are now buried in racks.

I’ve just started exploring this second method, so maybe I can conceive of something more refined after experimenting some more.


Don’t know if any of that pertains to your working methods , but let me know if you’d like any more info.

hambone1 wrote:I do quad DJing.

Instead of the crossfader, I use a combination of pan and send levels on each track. I've got a number of dummy clips that automatic the pan and send levels that I launch with buttons or FCB1010 footswitches, or embedded in the scene. The automation makes it easy to do 360 swooping pans, etc. There are 6 track pan and send levels set to BCR2000 rotary encoders, too.

It would definitely be easier with a proper quad panning control!

Mr Bone,

Very curious about your methods here. I don't know much about dummy clips, & automating the pan & send levels, but it sounds promising.

Are these techniques only available for warped &/or looped clips, or can they be used with un-warped clips? Most of what I'm currently doing with quad is not tempo based music -at least the sounds are not in tempo with each other. FWIW I also have my quantization set to none. Are you using sequences in the Arrange view, or clips in Session view? Maybe a combination of both?

Don't know if you read my rather lengthy post, but I work in discreet quad with each speaker receiving unique information.

If you can point me in the right direction with this I'd be grateful.

Oblique S

I use the same type of setup as you do. Hambone's dummy clip system is good for automating sends to the individual outs.

However, Abes - please take note again, all this would be SO MUCH simpler with a multi out bus, I can't imagine it is a difficult thing to implement, frustrated moan over.

Here's how I set up my BCR for quad DJing. I use a Yamaha 01V with mLAN. The main stereo outs go to the FOH speakers, stereo aux sends 1/2 to the rear of the room, stereo aux sends 3/4 go to a mini DV recorder that is also recording video from Arkaos VJ, the left monitor output goes to a visualizer, and the right monitor output to a mono IEM.

I use seven tracks and six sends, one main track A and two looping/one-shot tracks A1 and A2 for A deck, same for B deck, and live percussion on a separate track.

Row 1: VA=deck A volume, FM=front IEM level, RM=rear IEM level, VB=deck B volume, VM=IEM volume, CV=click volume, T=tempo (set to 80 to 200bpm), AxB=crossfader

Row 2: A, A1, A2, B, B1, B2, P = front send levels for six tracks + live percussion, PM=percussion IEM volume

Row 3: A, A1, A2, B, B1, B2, P = rear send levels for six tracks + live percussion, VIZ=send level to visualizer

Buttons: A cuts crossfader to A deck, LA launches Deck A scene, B cuts crossfader to B deck, LB launches Deck B scene, A=B centers crossfader. Numbered buttons are quantized left>right and right>left automated crossfades in beats (left side crossfades to right, vice versa), RST sets all BCR controls to default.

I also have a number of preset BCR controls (MIDI dummy clips) that are launched either with an FCB1010 footswitch (so I can swap pan/send level and Impulse presets while playing percussion) or embedded in a MIDI sequence. They all use MIDI feedback to the BCR so the rotary encoder LEDs show the correct Live positions. For example, I have one preset FCB button that sends 75% live percussion and 25% main track to the rear of the room, and 25% percussion and 75% main track to the front. Another preset sends A1, A2, B1, and B2 to the four corners of the room (I like to use this one with a different Latin percussion instrument loop going to each corner). Another preset uses panning and send level CC curves to do synched 360 degree sweeps around the room (clockwise or counter-clockwise). Another one sets all levels at front and rear to the same. I use this one the most. Otherwise, it's overused, and it's easy to forget that only the people directly in the middle of the room get the full quadraphonic effect.

Hope that helps. I can do this stuff, I'm just crap at explaining it!

oblique strategies wrote:Are these techniques only available for warped &/or looped clips, or can they be used with un-warped clips? Most of what I'm currently doing with quad is not tempo based music -at least the sounds are not in tempo with each other. FWIW I also have my quantization set to none. Are you using sequences in the Arrange view, or clips in Session view? Maybe a combination of both?

It doesn't matter whether the clips are warped or not, and tempo is irrelevant, apart from the 360s being synched to the tempo (4 beats to do a 360).

I don't even know what Arrange view is! (Just kidding...) I use Session view exclusively, apart from doing mini-remastering to the tracks I use.

hambone1 wrote: Here's how I set up my BCR for quad DJing...

Thanks hambone1.

I'll check it out. I'm interested to see your method with the dummy clips first hand.

Here's an example:

Loop A1 front/rear sends are assigned CC 21/22, Loop A2 23/24, Loop B1 25/26, Loop B2 27/28.

While are four loops are playing, a single MIDI dummy clip with CC21, 23, 26, 27 = 127 and CC22, 24, 25, 26 = 0 will send Loops A1 and A2 to the front of the room, B1 and B2 to the back of the room. Any and all combinations of CC values (or curves) can control send levels, and by combining pans, you can direct any track to any part of the room. Obviously, you can sequence the dummy clips, or use Follow Actions/MIDI effects/etc for some random yet controlled quad panning fun.

Chromatic beat-matching a track to the rear of the room while the outgoing track is finishing up at the front then moving the incoming track from the back to the front is pretty cool, too.

There's tons of scope for creativity!

I've been experimenting with this too. You can make a rudimentary panner if your midi controller has a x-y touch pad or joystick. Use 4 sends to discrete outputs and map track send levels to the joystick or pad. I cant remember off the top of my head exactly which values I used but you need to invert the values of 2 of the sends. Its very basic but you can create the effect of spinning sounds around you quite easily.

Another of my tests was to use 4 sends A-D routed to mono outputs. A and B are front left and right and C and D are rear left and rear right. I stuck a utility plug on each send and set A and D to Left only. Sends B and C were set to Right only.

Now, if you take a stereo sound with lots of panning information in it and route to all 4 sends you get a really immersive sound. I figured this would be a good way to enhance stereo in a dome environment. Whichever way you are facing in the dome you get a good mix of stereo.

One piece I'm working on at the moment has a chord sequence where each note is slowly revolving around your head on a different frequency and trajectory. Performing it for the first time in 2 weeks! Gulp.

Live should definitely implement multichannel sound. This software lends itself to it brilliantly and with a few properly integrated tools it would be amazing.

ubermnd wrote:I've been experimenting with this too. You can make a rudimentary panner if your midi controller has a x-y touch pad or joystick. Use 4 sends to discrete outputs and map track send levels to the joystick or pad. I cant remember off the top of my head exactly which values I used but you need to invert the values of 2 of the sends. Its very basic but you can create the effect of spinning sounds around you quite easily.

I'll give this a whirl with my Federation BPM FX Pro -it has a MIDI joystick. I recall reading that the Kaoss Pad 1 doesn't do this properly.

ubermnd wrote:Another of my tests was to use 4 sends A-D routed to mono outputs. A and B are front left and right and C and D are rear left and rear right. I stuck a utility plug on each send and set A and D to Left only. Sends B and C were set to Right only. Now, if you take a stereo sound with lots of panning information in it and route to all 4 sends you get a really immersive sound. I figured this would be a good way to enhance stereo in a dome environment. Whichever way you are facing in the dome you get a good mix of stereo.

Good ideas. I keep fantasizing about building a MIDI controller with little joysticks for every channel. but with a minimum of 20-24 channels, it would take a lot of them. I guess touch pads would be cool, more hardy than delicate joysticks, but they would each have to visually indicate where the sound was in the surround field. A Lemur could do the trick. Joysticks would be better though.

ubermnd wrote:One piece I'm working on at the moment has a chord sequence where each note is slowly revolving around your head on a different frequency and trajectory. Performing it for the first time in 2 weeks! Gulp.

Where are you performing your surround piece?

ubermnd wrote:Live should definitely implement multichannel sound. This software lends itself to it brilliantly and with a few properly integrated tools it would be amazing.

Yes please. In fact, you can add your voice to the chorus requesting surround support here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=69271

I'm performing a mixture of ambient sound design and abstract beats in 6 channel surround at Shambala Festival at the end of the month. We've got full sky visuals in the dome as well so if it all works it'll be awesome.

Haven't really done much live work before so this will be a real baptism by fire!

Have a look at our proposal site for an overview of what we're doing.

http://www.recursive-function.net/

Its all still relevant apart from the bits about audience interactivity. We're gonna work on that for next year.

ubermnd wrote:I'm performing a mixture of ambient sound design and abstract beats in 6 channel surround at Shambala Festival at the end of the month. We've got full sky visuals in the dome as well so if it all works it'll be awesome.

Sounds very nice indeed. Are you documenting it? If so, in what media?

I used to work in hex, but switched to quad when I moved to a smaller studio, & got 4 matched speakers, instead of 6 mis-matched funky ones!

ubermnd wrote:Haven't really done much live work before so this will be a real baptism by fire!

Been there before, & still have the scorch marks. But you know, it's these kinds of challenges that really push us to grow.

ubermnd wrote:Have a look at our proposal site for an overview of what we're doing.

http://www.recursive-function.net/

Its all still relevant apart from the bits about audience interactivity. We're gonna work on that for next year.

I'll check it out in a bit.

I used to work in hex, but switched to quad when I moved to a smaller studio, & got 4 matched speakers, instead of 6 mis-matched funky ones!

Originally, we wanted an octophonic stage but getting matched speakers has been an issue. We've got 6 active mackie 1530s for the dome. Our limit on noise is 3k and that plus the 2 subs comes out at a cool 15k! real shame we cant crank it.

As for documenting it, not sure how best to proceed. We'll certainly be recording out the desk in some fashion or other. We've recruited a mate to film the whole process of setting up, performing etc so we can make a showreel.