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best way to get fat, clear heavy kicks 4 techno?
Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:18 pm
by dj mush
hello,
i'm making some techno stuff here, and have made several tracks and still have the impression that the kick doesn't really kicks in like it should be.
weather i use samples from mpc or samples from ableton, i always have the impression that the kicks (or drums) are a bit dull, not powerfull...
alltough i followed some good guides concerning mixing/mastering.
my drums are set to mono with utility, sliders are set to 0, master is somewhere -6.
i'm not going in red on other tracks either.
sometimes the sound of the kick still gets lost in the overal mix...
i tried adjusting Hrz, but that doesn't do the trick either (at least thats what i think)
on my last liveset people also noticed that the punch was in some tracks not really present....or got lost.
they also do not sound very rich... alltough i think i'm using good samples.
you can check some tracks at
www.myspace.com/djmush
can somebody give me some tips on what they add in the drumchain?
or after listening to my tracks, maybe someone can help me point out what is wrong? or are my tracks pretty ok?
yeah, always have doubts....
help would be very much appreciated!
thank you!
Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:34 pm
by forge
remember the whole mix is intertwined - there is likely somethign else stealing it's space
the most likely is the bass, try cutting the bass below 100Hz and let it dominate with the 2nd harmonics and let the kick handle the sub-bass (under 80-100) then you will find the kick stands on it's own
with bass you can try boosting in the 80-120Hz region 9maybe centered around 100Hz) and cutting in the 120-250Hz region, maybe centered around 140-150Hz
that's as well as a Hi-Pass to cut off under 80-100 on the bass
you might find you can get away with cutting frequencies on the kick that you have boosted on the bass
Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:49 pm
by dj mush
thanx for getting back that quick forge...
to make things clear:
- with bass you mean the 'bass' of a synth and not the bass of a drumkick?
- with cutting bass below Hz, do you mean that i have to drag down that circle (in standard eq of ableton) all the way down, everything before the vertical line 'Hz'?-
-let the kick handle sub-bass (under 80-100): does that mean dragging down everything after 100?
thanx again!
Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:11 pm
by Aequitas123
dj mush wrote:thanx for getting back that quick forge...
to make things clear:
- with bass you mean the 'bass' of a synth and not the bass of a drumkick?
- with cutting bass below Hz, do you mean that i have to drag down that circle (in standard eq of ableton) all the way down, everything before the vertical line 'Hz'?-
-let the kick handle sub-bass (under 80-100): does that mean dragging down everything after 100?
thanx again!
He means your bass instrument, whether its synth, sample or audio, it doesnt matter.
Yes it means dragging down the circle. Its probably easier to just click the Low Cut button on the first circle though.
Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:00 pm
by duckpow
The way I would handle the problem:
Get a kick that lies around 300 hz, and with a hard click!
Put a side-chain comp on your bass (synth/sample whatever) routed to your kick.
Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:10 pm
by Superchibisan
redo your mixes. and eq your bass with your kick.
mix your beat and bass 3db above everything else.
cut your bass in the freqs that are dominated by the kick drum. (use the spectrum tool
) anywhere from -2-6db of cut should be sufficient.
make sure to compress your kick properly so that its not getting washed by the bassline.
Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:17 pm
by kraze
Layering and proper individual compression/equalization is definently the key for techno.
I usually take the 70-200hz from a 909, 30-60hz from a 808, the 150-400hz body from an acoustic kick and the 450-800hz from a crazily eq-nuked snappy snare.
Then its all about making sure the levels emphasize the fitting characters and compressing the signal as a whole to really glue it all together.
A little trick i usually do these days is to skip the 808 and instead add a (sidechained to the kick, of course) sine wave playing a duplicate of the bass-line. This makes it sound like the drums are driving the rhythm section a bit more without having to nuke it with buscompression/treble enchancing.
Also, don't underestimate the use of synths with pitch envelopes to layer in below the beef. Everyone has the same 909 samples, but not every one has the same broken wobbly pawn shop 80's synths. Don't be afraid to do some mad sample editing, that's where you get your own sound.
Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:48 pm
by nbinder
kraze wrote:I usually take the 70-200hz from a 909, 30-60hz from a 808, the 150-400hz body from an acoustic kick and the 450-800hz from a crazily eq-nuked snappy snare..
Incredible... i do pretty much the same thing! Except from the snare, I usually use a hat with very very shot decay or simply white noise (EQed). I also had good experiences with a second 808 kick (this time very clicky, very compressed, mid/higs EQed).
Have to try that with the snaredrum... great!
Re: best way to get fat, clear heavy kicks 4 techno?
Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:31 pm
by Ten Square
Hello,
there was a time when I tried to recreate the kind a kick used by Trentemoller on his great track "Physical Fraction". The main kick is very clean, fat, loud and very low in frequency. The best way I found (and I think I managed to obtain the same kick) was to program it with a synthesizer.
I used Absynth with a single oscillator based on a sine waveform at a fixed frequency of approximately 300 Hz. Then I modulated the pitch of the sine with a very fast envelope so that its frequency swept from 300 Hz to 30 Hz or lower. Changing the caracteristics of the envelope (linear, exponential, start level, end level, release time, ...) can be very usefull to obtain different kick sounds.
During my tests, I also realized that the impression of a fat kick was especially due to the fast decreasing of the pitch. I didn't manage to obtain the same result with a constant sine pitch, even if its base frequency was low enough (30 - 40 Hz) .
One more trick : the kick must be completly mono to be efficient enough (no panning, no effect).
It's worth to try!
Bonne chance!
Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:35 am
by forge
this is from the other thread about warmth,and more about bass, but it's relevant here
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 383#758383
forge wrote:3dot... wrote:forge wrote:warmth = 120-250Hz quite often
that's it ?
well that is the region often associated with warmth, but it is also the region associated with muddiness if there is too much there
as with anything it depends a lot on what is in the mix and how much is already going on in this range - if there's already a lot there then boosting will just make it muddy - usually you don't need all instruments to be strong in the same region at once and can give them better separation if they are stronger at different frequencies - even if it's only slightly
another thing to consider, especially with bass is the ratio between bass and low bass - so if you boost in the 120-250Hz then you could try cutting in the 80-120 region - and if you don't need your bass to have any sub (i.e. because the kick is really strong there) then you could just use a Hi-pass and cut everything below that 80 Hz region
alot of the time the 2nd harmnics of bass (certainly with bass guitar) can be nearly as strong as the fundamental, so you might not need the fundamental to really be heard as it might clash with the meat of the kick anyway
all this can make the bass tighter and sit better with the kick
glitchrock-buddha wrote:forge wrote:warmth = 120-250Hz quite often
You know what's funny, a while back I felt that Zebra2 was sounding a bit thin compared to some other of my synths for basses and mid range leads when I was trying to get a certain bass sound starting from some presets. Then I raised the bass levels around this range with zebra's EQ. Problem solved. Thing is, I didn't hear it as missing bass, I heard it as just not sounding as warm at the time. I tend to use EQ subractively to cut frequencies away that clash or are uneeded, not usually adding, but in this case, it really was that simple.
and also, the mighty Bob Katz talks about the 'yin and yang of EQ' where sometimes cutting in a different frequency can have a similar effect
so for example, if you cut a little at maybe around 5kHz it can have the same effect - might not be exactly 5kHz, trial and error, but up in that region
Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:22 am
by kraze
nbinder wrote:kraze wrote:I usually take the 70-200hz from a 909, 30-60hz from a 808, the 150-400hz body from an acoustic kick and the 450-800hz from a crazily eq-nuked snappy snare..
Incredible... i do pretty much the same thing! Except from the snare, I usually use a hat with very very shot decay or simply white noise (EQed). I also had good experiences with a second 808 kick (this time very clicky, very compressed, mid/higs EQed).
Have to try that with the snaredrum... great!
Awesome.
I usually go for a really fat disco type snare, distorted and with a bunch of very cheap plate reverb, it adds a certain flavour don't require me to have as many percussive elements that i'd normally have, try it out and don't be afraid to expand the eq points a bit.
Re: best way to get fat, clear heavy kicks 4 techno?
Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:52 am
by logic_user99
Ten Square wrote:Hello,
there was a time when I tried to recreate the kind a kick used by Trentemoller on his great track "Physical Fraction". The main kick is very clean, fat, loud and very low in frequency. The best way I found (and I think I managed to obtain the same kick) was to program it with a synthesizer.
I used Absynth with a single oscillator based on a sine waveform at a fixed frequency of approximately 300 Hz. Then I modulated the pitch of the sine with a very fast envelope so that its frequency swept from 300 Hz to 30 Hz or lower. Changing the caracteristics of the envelope (linear, exponential, start level, end level, release time, ...) can be very usefull to obtain different kick sounds.
During my tests, I also realized that the impression of a fat kick was especially due to the fast decreasing of the pitch. I didn't manage to obtain the same result with a constant sine pitch, even if its base frequency was low enough (30 - 40 Hz) .
One more trick : the kick must be completly mono to be efficient enough (no panning, no effect).
It's worth to try!
Bonne chance!
Genius! Thanks for that, Ten Square! I love that track, too. TM is a legend.
Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:58 pm
by forge
I just read this thread as "best way to get fat, dear, heavy chicks for techno"
Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:30 pm
by glamourboy
forge wrote:I just read this thread as "best way to get fat, dear, heavy chicks for techno"
fortunately techno chicks are usually quite slim. must be all that dancing. and mindaltering substances perhaps.
anyway, i usually make a kick with a softsynth (albino, yay) and then give it texture with some kind of sampled percussion. sadly albino doesn't make nice steady clicks so i use samples for that too (which is prolly better anyway).
sometimes a noise signal on top with a (relatively) slow attack, about 150ms i think, to get that "umpchh" that's popular in ghetto stuff like felix the housecat.
i usually keep the kick below the bass in dance music, and almost always let the kick duck the bass using sidechain compression. even if the bass sits above the kick, they will almost certainly clash during the sweep of the kick, especially if you really need punch which will require a (relatively) long sweep.
everytime i hit a good combination i save that bitch. don't discard a great kick just because it doesn't sit well with the track you're working on, it might come in handy later.
Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:58 pm
by Enrique
I co-sign everything forge said.
Also, choose your samples carefully. Sample libraries of unprocessed vintage drum machines are always a good starting point. Take your time, this is serious work. I sometimes need up to ten hours until I found what I'm looking for. Don't use garbage like the ones from Vengeance or any other supplier who cuts them out of already existing tracks. These samples are already heavily processed and will mostly sound like shit in your own mix. They also make it hard to develope your own sound...