Sync Problems caused by APC 40 ?!? video inside! plz help

[blablub]

This video shows a bug with the synchronisation of two systems running Ableton Live later than version 7.0.10 (including latest 8.0.4).
If you record loops, every sample has a slightly other tempo. Live warps the loops resulting in less quality or higher cpu load when you select a 'higher' algorithm of the standard warping method.
Until version 7.0.10 the bug did not occur. The recorded loops had the same/right tempo and length. No warping was neccessary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT9Dkh83rIY



This video shows the syncing of two systems running Ableton Live 8.0.4 via MIDI Clock. The Windows XP System is Master and the Macbook Pro 15" is slave. The sounds you hear are generated by the slave. As you can hear the slave gets out of sync if you select different tracks or effect racks on the master.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYAnK9eJPVE


Any help, workaround or advice welcome. Thank you

[blablub]

bump

[drewbixcube]

This video shows a bug with the synchronisation of two systems running Ableton Live later than version 7.0.10 (including latest 8.0.4).
If you record loops, every sample has a slightly other tempo. Live warps the loops resulting in less quality or higher cpu load when you select a 'higher' algorithm of the standard warping method.
Until version 7.0.10 the bug did not occur. The recorded loops had the same/right tempo and length. No warping was neccessary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT9Dkh83rIY

While watching the video, I noticed Live's tempo was fluctuating. I think this is common when running in EXT mode, and it also explains why each clip is a different tempo. When recording a clip, Live assigns the current tempo to that clip. If the tempo is changed in between clips, the new clip will have the new tempo.

I recommend turning "Loop/Warp Short Samples" to "Auto" in the Record/Warp/Launch tab of Live's preferences. This way, it won't matter what tempo you record a clip, as it will always playback at the current tempo without having to manually warp each one.

I'm sorry I'm not much more help here, but I might also suggest looking into a more specific reason as to why the tempo is fluctuating when Live is listening to MIDI clock. I've always accepted this as "normal" and haven't done much research myself.

This video shows the syncing of two systems running Ableton Live 8.0.4 via MIDI Clock. The Windows XP System is Master and the Macbook Pro 15" is slave. The sounds you hear are generated by the slave. As you can hear the slave gets out of sync if you select different tracks or effect racks on the master.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYAnK9eJPVE


Any help, workaround or advice welcome. Thank you

I've nothing to offer this one. This may very well indeed be a bug. Best of luck!

[drewbixcube]

Just watched the first video again... it looks like you already have the preferences set up as described. I'm curious though... Why do you say each clip needs to be warped? They've already been warped, and should play in time.

[blablub]

The tempo has been fluctuating since all versions after 7.0.10. The support told us, it is only a visual thing, and does not effect the actual recorded material. But this is not the case. As you suggested, auto-warping is turned on. It is not the problem that it does not playback in right speed and tempo but actually looses quality being warped. Until version 7.0.10 it had no reason to be warped, because it had just the right length. Live had the right tempo (or reacted a little slower to the midi jitter) and the (sync-)recorded clips had the same tempo and did not have to be warped. MIDI Clock indeed has a lot of jittering, but only after version 7.0.10 it affects the recorded material.

The resaon for playing in time without the need for readjusting is the live-context of the setup. There is no time to look for a perfect loop or perfect warp, it is just: the music is going -> record -> play, and it has to be there.

Thank you for your thoughts, maybe there come some more from others.

[blablub]

we currently work without sync ... trying to stay on the same beat with tab tempo and so on... if sync is of, the apc 40 does not inluence the timing of delays/fx/global-timing/groove and so on... it only seems to "destroy" the outgoing midiclock...

if u have any idea or workaround plz let us know...
thx alot

blablub

[marcushorndt]

Similar problem with me on a Macbook Pro 15" (2.8 Core 2 Duo / 4 GB DDR / OS X 10.5.7 / Live 8.0.4), but not with the APC40 but with the X-Fader. Without touching the fader, timing is fine, crossing between A and B causes significant timing delay. The liveset causes an average load of 40-50%. Also noticable are audio artefacts like as if you have set a very low buffer. Mine is 128 Samples.

Maybe there is a simple solution;-?

M

[blablub]

we both updated to vers. 8.0.5 did some testings, but no solution to our problems yet...
it still seems to be impossible to sync 2 computers with live, so that you can work/record/play on a live stage!!!

please give us back the midi behaveour of vers. 7.10 or earlier...

any ideas? same problems? does it work on your machines?

greetz blablub

[Martyn]

Any solutions on this yet, just tried syncing two laptops together for the first time (after years of using live) and it just doesn't seem to work at all, the only solution was to tap tempo it all by hand, not that successful either really.

Is it really THIS bad, I know I've read complaints before about Live's clock problems but this is frankly ridiculous. Is midi syncability really that low on the 'to do' list?

Very surprised.

m

[Johnisfaster]

I'd like to cast my vote for "get off your ass ableton and fix this fuc**ng problem already!"

[blablub]

well, not a solution but a workaround...
that is not really satisfiing but could work... as a workaround... need to do some more testing though... not sure if we its stable enough... i think u get my point...

found this in another thread

what i'm thinking is just sending a play message to ableton and rellying on the fact that the bpms are the smae to stay in sync. Almost like pressing space bar at excatly the same time.

In that case you might want to use MTC instead of Midi Clock Sync. This enabled you to have everything in sync as far as start/stop concerned, but tempo will be independent (and you cannot ff/rew via Midi clock).

Click on the small arrow left of the Midi Port preferences in Live and change the "Sync Type" to "Midi Timecode". You can then use an MTC Master like MidiOx to sync the Live Slaves.

I reproducibly manage to get two Live Slaves into sample-accurate sync over virtual (aka jitter-free) Midi connections (MidiYoke). So it seems like a good and working alternative if you don't need tempo synchronisation.

heres the link to the whole thread: http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php? ... t=motu+mtp
maybe this is helping some of u... but i still wanna work with a low jittered stable midiclock...
please share your experiences with the midi-sync issues...

my experience with it so far:

+ syncs stable
+ the apc issue (see video on first page) is still there... put both computers stay in "bad" time!!
+ live will not unnesecerally warp the loops recorded on the synced machines (see the other video on page 1)

- u´ll have to install an run 2 other programms (midi-ox 4 generating the timeclock, and midi-yoke as an virtual midiport) unfortunately these programms are PC-only... if u find a equivalent programm for the mac plz let everybody know
- u cant change tempo and stay in sync without starting/stopping the MTC
- as all machines are in slave, u can´t control the transportbuttons while in sync

thx blablub

[Martyn]

Helpful stuff

Thanks for that, I'll definitely give that a try, I already have MidiYoke installed on the lappy so just got to install MidiOx.


I wish a new standard like OSC would just take hold with manufacturers letting us dump midi for good, it's ridiculously out of date and it's absurd that we're still relying on it for things like just syncing two laptops together. It blatently doesn't work.

Thanks again.

m

[blablub]

unfortunately no news to the apc40 sync bug...
i contacted the akai support and they think its a "live-internal" problem to wich they have no solution...
but worth a try...

i´ll keep searching!

greetz
blablub

[Martyn]

Good call on the MidiOx through MidiYoke MTC method, seems to work well.

It begs the question as to why MidiOx can do it yet Live can't though, it really doesn't work at all trying MTC from Live to Live yet works flawlessly when sent from MidiOx via MidiYoke.

Thanks for the good advice.

m

[blablub]

just finished running a test in Live 8.0.8...
unfortunately Live is still warping the recorded clips for no reason...

see video please!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT9Dkh83rIY

this is so anoying...

again: this did not happen until vers. 7.0.10... doesn´t make any sence to me...
recorded stuff sounds eather artefact,glitchy because of warping... or, if selecting a better warp mode it eats up cpu...
how do you guys record your audio, when beeing slave in sync mode???

for the 2nd video about the apc 40 sync killer i try to run a test this evening...
stay tuned, and in time...

greetz
blablub