maxforlive.com

[synnack]

Are you hosting this site on your own home cable connection?
I hope you have the hardware and redundancy / backuping set up to handle such a site there..

Max for Live is not even out yet. In a month of beta testing, only 9 devices were shared. Once the software is actually released and IF the demand actually turns out to be there, I will move it.

The technical requirements will be determined by the actual use of this resource. In other words, share so many things that I need to move it and I will.

To my mind this statistic is quite telling. M4L is a complex tool and if you don't come from a programming background, producing even simple utility devices requires a significant time investment. In over a month, the MFL forum on Ableton has averaged 10-20 messages a day - a tiny fraction of what I had expected to see.

I'm beginning to think the M4L is going to be a slow drawn out affair. The only devices I have seen come along so far to I would refer to as essential killer applications are the two step sequencing devices (the stand alone and APC/Novation grid based iteration) both of which can be accomplished with either free third party tools or dedicated plugins (which provide a far better user experience) such as Thesys or Numerology. I'm sure that for many the thoughts of paying $299 to run these type of device coupled with the realisation that they are going to have to wait for the talented folk at companies such as Covert Operators/PureMagnetik to create devices (which they are likely to have to outlay more cash for) isn't very compelling.

JM

http://leftside-wobble.blogspot.com/

I agree. The most compelling value prop so far is for developers who have always wish they could implement xyz thing and now they can.

There are a lot of possible reasons for a lack of sharing so far though. For example, I myself have not even shared any of my devices on my own site! Primarily it's because I get caught in the trap of wanting to clean them up and comment them well before the public see's them. Which... I rarely go back and do.

I have had others tell me the same thing. They haven't shared cool things they built because they just "threw it together" and didn't build it clean enough to want other people to judge them for it.

[technog0d]

I come from a programming background. The biggest thing that you hear from another developer is that they do not want to show you their code because they are embarrassed by it. Programming is highly personal. You are usually your own worst critic. I find that a lot of people programs are better then they think. It is just a confidence thing. Just because you are new to a lanuguage, does not mean that your programs are bad. Does it matter if there is a better way to program it? I don't think so. That is part of the learning process. You do things one way and as you learn, you keep optimizing. I cannot tell you how many times I have optimized patches as I have learned things in Max. Please do not be afraid to share patches. We are not hear to judge, but to help. I have placed patches on the forum and people have posted more optimized versions and that is how i learned. It's a great community here. Share and have fun. We will all learn from each other.

[octopod]

I have had others tell me the same thing. They haven't shared cool things they built because they just "threw it together" and didn't build it clean enough to want other people to judge them for it.

Perhaps maxforlive.com could have a section for devices like this?

[synnack]

I have had others tell me the same thing. They haven't shared cool things they built because they just "threw it together" and didn't build it clean enough to want other people to judge them for it.

Perhaps maxforlive.com could have a section for devices like this?

Well, it's an interesting problem. Really all I'd have to do is make it an option when you upload a device to share it anonymously, instead of having your username shown as the author. Then, people may share devices even if they aren't pretty.

But the catch is that we'd probably end up with hundreds of crappy devices and the reputation of the library could be that everything in it is crap. Catch 22 I guess. For the moment I'd rather force people to show their names in the hopes it drives quality since I can't actually preview every device to ensure quality when they are posted.

I suppose I could exclude "anonymous" devices from the regular library and have a special tag for that. Hrm. I'll think on it.

[djod]

To my mind this statistic is quite telling. M4L is a complex tool and if you don't come from a programming background, producing even simple utility devices requires a significant time investment. In over a month, the MFL forum on Ableton has averaged 10-20 messages a day - a tiny fraction of what I had expected to see.

Remember that the beta is public for about a week now, the was a Small closed beta group, So you have to regard the statistic in context

[jon_moore]

I come from a programming background. The biggest thing that you hear from another developer is that they do not want to show you their code because they are embarrassed by it. Programming is highly personal. You are usually your own worst critic. I find that a lot of people programs are better then they think. It is just a confidence thing. Just because you are new to a lanuguage, does not mean that your programs are bad. Does it matter if there is a better way to program it? I don't think so. That is part of the learning process. You do things one way and as you learn, you keep optimizing. I cannot tell you how many times I have optimized patches as I have learned things in Max. Please do not be afraid to share patches. We are not hear to judge, but to help. I have placed patches on the forum and people have posted more optimized versions and that is how i learned. It's a great community here. Share and have fun. We will all learn from each other.

While I agree that creators of any kind (not just programming) are often their own worse critics I think there's something different going on here. Reaktor since launch has had a huge library of devices being shared (Tassman on the other hand has very low community involvement even though it is subjectively a more superior product).

The Max/MSP community is vibrant (in another post you mention the great Berkeley library of open source objects), I just think that at it's heart the Ableton community is one of music makers (who fell in love with Live due to it's accessibility and simplicity in the first place) and the reality of learning a complex programming environment is beginning to sink in. Look at the number of posts requesting a free or low cost version of a M4L runtime (Pluggo equivalent) for Live since M4L has become a public beta (a request which I believe has much merit).

It's great that both maxforlive.com & max4live.info exist and I commend both of you in your efforts to spread knowledge amongst the Ableton community. Hopefully in the coming months the number of community built devices and Live specific open source objects being shared will increase significantly and if this does happen both of your sites will have been a significant aspect in that success.

JM

http://leftside-wobble.blogspot.com/

[LoopStationZebra]

I have no interest in doing forums and tutorials.

Which is badly needed, BTW. Clear, concise tuts. Not saying that's your responsibility, but having a section to host those would be great. Saves time from having to search 300 cryptic threads in order to figure something out.

[technog0d]

I have no interest in doing forums and tutorials.

Which is badly needed, BTW. Clear, concise tuts. Not saying that's your responsibility, but having a section to host those would be great. Saves time from having to search 300 cryptic threads in order to figure something out.

That is what my site and the Ableton and Cycling74 tutorials are for.

If there is a tuorial that you would like to see. Please tell us and we will do our best to provide it.

Mike

[synnack]

I have no interest in doing forums and tutorials.

Which is badly needed, BTW. Clear, concise tuts. Not saying that's your responsibility, but having a section to host those would be great. Saves time from having to search 300 cryptic threads in order to figure something out.

I agree that it's badly needed but my point is there will be tons of that coming. There is already extendlive.com and www.max4live.info and there is already a discussion forum only for maxforlive here where people will post tons of content for sure.

Tutorials and discussions I believe will come but I did not see patch/device sharing existing in a useful way so that was my focus.

[Poster]

@tempus3r

some things you might consider to take a look at..

- on the homepage, the Device Categories menu is unnecessarily big in height.. needs too much scrolling..
edit: I see another, less big list now..
still.. maybe the header of the site is a tad to high?
think laptop screen estate..

- Device Categories disappear when click a categorie..
preferably always have the categories visable..the back button is not a friend..

- the actual download button is burried too deep..
I expected it to find in the list of devices, not in the final detail page of a device at the bottom of the page..

-once you're in the device detail page there's no easy way to get back to the list of that device' categorie..

- you should be able to request all devices build by a certain author by clicking his/her name once you come across one..

- same goes for tags..

- global search is a shot in the dark really..
I tried to search for a tag, no hits.. this because I have no clue how you exactly named the tags..
I could search for stutter while you call it glitch..
better use tag clouds or any other visual exploring tool.. also for the other search categories..

- is there version/revision tracking for each single device?

cheers..

[synnack]

Hi Poster. Some great feedback here.

@tempus3r

some things you might consider to take a look at..

- on the homepage, the Device Categories menu is unnecessarily big in height.. needs too much scrolling..
edit: I see another, less big list now..
still.. maybe the header of the site is a tad to high?
think laptop screen estate..

Agreed that whole list there is not well thought out. It was more of a place holder. I intend people to click "Free Patch Library" where the real category list is.

- Device Categories disappear when click a categorie..
preferably always have the categories visable..the back button is not a friend..

Once you are in a catatory like that, the idea is that you'd click "Free Path Library" on the main menu to get back to the category list. That shit on the main home page is just a jumping off spot. Maybe I am just used to doing that but it's not obvious enough.

- the actual download button is burried too deep..
I expected it to find in the list of devices, not in the final detail page of a device at the bottom of the page..

-once you're in the device detail page there's no easy way to get back to the list of that device' categorie..

Good points. I will fix.

- you should be able to request all devices build by a certain author by clicking his/her name once you come across one..

- same goes for tags..

Easy enough. I'll take care of that too.

- global search is a shot in the dark really..
I tried to search for a tag, no hits.. this because I have no clue how you exactly named the tags..
I could search for stutter while you call it glitch..
better use tag clouds or any other visual exploring tool.. also for the other search categories..

Completely agree. Better search is on the roadmap. http://www.maxforlive.com/about.php#roadmap

- is there version/revision tracking for each single device?

cheers..

Yep. You specify the version for each device in the form when you create it and upload the .amxd file.

Thanks again for the feedback. Exactly what I need.

[synnack]

FYI, added commenting last night.

Join me in commenting on some of the cool devices already shared.

Screenshot support up next.

[jon_moore]

FYI, added commenting last night.

Join me in commenting on some of the cool devices already shared.

Screenshot support up next.

Are you now able to upload zip files as well as .amxd's? I'd like to upload a new version of my floating step sequencer next week but it needs to be distributed with preset files and an external js file. The freeze function isn't suitable in this instance.

Libraries coming along nicely by the way...

[synnack]

FYI, added commenting last night.

Join me in commenting on some of the cool devices already shared.

Screenshot support up next.

Are you now able to upload zip files as well as .amxd's? I'd like to upload a new version of my floating step sequencer next week but it needs to be distributed with preset files and an external js file. The freeze function isn't suitable in this instance.

Libraries coming along nicely by the way...

I was holding off on allowing zip files because I didn't the library to become another "you send it" or "rapid share" where people could just post cracked software, movies, or whatever in zip files and trade content that was not specifically maxforlive devices.

So on the roadmap I was planning to allow you to upload multiple files per device.

However in thinking about this more I thought of another solution which may be good enough. Maybe I will allow zip files but enforce quotas on the size of file you can upload as zip based on how many other devices you've shared.

So if you're a user who's shared 10 .amxd devices you can upload zips larger than 2 megs but If you're a user who's shared less than 10 you can't.

Something like that. I'll think more on this.

[jon_moore]

I was holding off on allowing zip files because I didn't the library to become another "you send it" or "rapid share" where people could just post cracked software, movies, or whatever in zip files and trade content that was not specifically maxforlive devices.

So on the roadmap I was planning to allow you to upload multiple files per device.

However in thinking about this more I thought of another solution which may be good enough. Maybe I will allow zip files but enforce quotas on the size of file you can upload as zip based on how many other devices you've shared.

So if you're a user who's shared 10 .amxd devices you can upload zips larger than 2 megs but If you're a user who's shared less than 10 you can't.

Something like that. I'll think more on this.

I have an idea which may be easier to implement - It's just a suggestion though!

How about only being able to upload/link zipped files as support to an existing .amxd device listing. At the moment you could effectively do the same thing by utilising the URL field to link to support files hosted externally. It may be a big ask to try and get people to upload 10 devices before they can share a device with support files.

My 10 cents...