Overwhelmed, M4L maybe NOT for me?

[Pasha]

Just sign up for the beta program.
Since yesterday I went through documentation many times,
without success. It's my first encounter with Max at all.
Probably I got it wrong since the beginning, I thought
Max was a simple series of drag & drop objects connected
by signal (audio+midi) flow and control flows.
I saw that's a lot more than that and I feel that you have
to be a programmer and a good knowledge of Audio & MIDI
to go through and exploit it completely.
I had in mind a blue print of an Audio
2 MIDI converter to play my guitar and hear Operator sounds
(without any MIDI Pickup of course) maybe this task is too much
for me to be the first. I do not even know where to begin..
What do you think?
I can accept that M4L is too complicated for me I'm a musician
with big IT experience but little programing experience,
should I give up and listen to my feelings?

- Best
- Pasha

[Martyn]

You're not alone!

I did almost exactly what you did, spent practically the whole of yesterday going through the tutorials and even tried wading through some of the Max tutorials, just in case there was some thing for complete beginners.

I think if Ableton are going to pick up any musos who have no clue how to program, they're going to have to do better with the tutorials.

Sorry guys, maybe I really am too old and stupid for this sort of thing but I need something REALLY basic to start off with, I've no idea what to suggest. I found M4L totally impenetrable from those lessons, in fact the whole experience has left me feeling down on myself and quite depressed generally.

I wanted to be able to understand this but I guess I'm just too old and dumb.

m

[33tetragammon]

should I give up and listen to my feelings?

just do what you feel is right.the rest is not important.

remember,MFL is just a tool,just like everything else.
use the tools that let your creativity flow optimally with a smile on your face.

[Pasha]

You're not alone!

I did almost exactly what you did, spent practically the whole of yesterday going through the tutorials and even tried wading through some of the Max tutorials, just in case there was some thing for complete beginners.

I think if Ableton are going to pick up any musos who have no clue how to program, they're going to have to do better with the tutorials.

Sorry guys, maybe I really am too old and stupid for this sort of thing but I need something REALLY basic to start off with, I've no idea what to suggest. I found M4L totally impenetrable from those lessons, in fact the whole experience has left me feeling down on myself and quite depressed generally.

I wanted to be able to understand this but I guess I'm just too old and dumb.

m

Thanks for support... (hugs).
I do not think you're too old or dumb.
Tutorials have a very hard learning curve.
We need more basic stuff.
Take for example the Live Gain object which is used in Delay tutorial.
Plugin - Plugout are objects. You can't start without knowing what objects
are in Max and MSP...
I think M4L is fantastic but needs to be explained in a basic way.
I'll check you tube for tutorials from Cycling 74 or others.

- Cheers
- Pasha

[technog0d]

You should definitely take the time and go through the tutorials that Ableton and Cycling74 provide. Ableton has Live sets that go along with the tutorials. If you look at the right side of your screen where the Live help is when you start, there is a lot of info there. If you go to page 6/6 and click on one of the topics, Ableton has provided some nice tutorials with Live sets on the various topics. When you are in the Live sets, open up the patches and they are pretty well documented.

If this is to overwhelming for you then check out Beginning Max 1, and Beginning Max 1 1/2 on my site just to start out. They are some quick videos to get you started. There are also other videos on subjects like clips, observers, objects, etc... If there is something that you do not understand, tell us and we will try and put together tutorials on it. Yes, we do take requests.

http://www.max4live.info/

[Martyn]

You should definitely take the time and go through the tutorials that Ableton and Cycling74 provide. Ableton has Live sets that go along with the tutorials. If you look at the right side of your screen where the Live help is when you start, there is a lot of info there. If you go to page 6/6 and click on one of the topics, Ableton has provided some nice tutorials with Live sets on the various topics. When you are in the Live sets, open up the patches and they are pretty well documented.

If this is to overwhelming for you then check out Beginning Max 1, and Beginning Max 1 1/2 on my site just to start out. They are some quick videos to get you started. There are also other videos on subjects like clips, observers, objects, etc... If there is something that you do not understand, tell us and we will try and put together tutorials on it. Yes, we do take requests.

http://www.max4live.info/

I did go through the tutorials but found them lacking some basic stuff for somebody completely new to programming of any kind as well as max itself. I got nothing at all from those tutorials.

I'll try the ones on your site, videos might be better as a starter.

I'm just not sure any of this will help me make music, but I am hugely interested in algorithmic music creation without having ANY clue as to how exactly I might even begin to approach such a thing.

I had an idea for a kind of midi delay that could randomly vary timings by small amounts and trigger various samples of something like real hand claps (for instance) to create the impression that there were more than one person clapping. I'm now thinking that from my perspective it'd take me less time to simply go somewhere and record a few people clapping their hands together and get a better result.

I will persevere though, thanks for pointing me to some tutorials, I think the ones that come with Live are next to useless for somebody at my level. That's as valuable as my input to this beta test can be, I think Ableton should consider a complete video beginners course as well as something more than these included lessons.

[Pasha]

You should definitely take the time and go through the tutorials that Ableton and Cycling74 provide. Ableton has Live sets that go along with the tutorials. If you look at the right side of your screen where the Live help is when you start, there is a lot of info there. If you go to page 6/6 and click on one of the topics, Ableton has provided some nice tutorials with Live sets on the various topics. When you are in the Live sets, open up the patches and they are pretty well documented.

If this is to overwhelming for you then check out Beginning Max 1, and Beginning Max 1 1/2 on my site just to start out. They are some quick videos to get you started. There are also other videos on subjects like clips, observers, objects, etc... If there is something that you do not understand, tell us and we will try and put together tutorials on it. Yes, we do take requests.

http://www.max4live.info/

Thanks.
I will take my time but I will stop if I see that I'm not up to the task.
So far how do you convert Audio to MIDI?
I have found an ftom objects that gets frequency as input so now
what I have is how do I get a frequency from a monophonic audio source (i.e. my guitar)?
I found no object capable of that...

- Best
- Pasha

[Martyn]

@ Technog0d

I just watched your Beginning Max part 1 video and got more out of the 5 mins it took to watch than I did with the lessons included in m4l. Please do some more like that, step by step, well explained lessons by example. That has helped me understand more of the overview of what it is and how to do stuff than reading it off a helpfile did to me, I normally don't have a problem with manuals but for some reason I'm finding this very hard to grasp.

Hearing and seeing somebody explaining it by example is working for me, you should make some more. I'm pretty sure that many other beginners will feel the same way and you'll get a LOT of traffic through your site.

Many thanks.

m

[Pasha]

@ Technog0d

I just watched your Beginning Max part 1 video and got more out of the 5 mins it took to watch than I did with the lessons included in m4l. Please do some more like that, step by step, well explained lessons by example. That has helped me understand more of the overview of what it is and how to do stuff than reading it off a helpfile did to me, I normally don't have a problem with manuals but for some reason I'm finding this very hard to grasp.

Hearing and seeing somebody explaining it by example is working for me, you should make some more. I'm pretty sure that many other beginners will feel the same way and you'll get a LOT of traffic through your site.

Many thanks.

m

I join Martyn in a big thank.
M4L cannot be approached like 'jump in the water' you'll learn to swim..
That's why those videos come very handy!!!

- Cheers
- Pasha

[Tarekith]

I was pretty overwhelmed too, to the point where even though I knew it was going to be like this, I decided that M4L is likely not for me. I'm interested in seeing what other people come up with, but I can't see myself going down the rabbit hole of creating my own devices (at least in the foreseeable future).

[LoopStationZebra]

lol. Great thread. Also a total beginner here, but M4L is akin to something like Flash; which has an incredibly steep learning curve, yet you can get going on doing some basic stuff almost immediately. The more time you dedicate, the clearer it gets. Trying to create some audio MIDI converter right off the bat? Dude. That's intense for a program that you just opened up for the first time.

That's why sites like the one technog0d has created will be INVALUABLE. One of the things that struck me the most after getting into Max for the first time was how incredibly scattered and obtuse the entire culture is. Have they created a cool culture of open source sharing and some excellent patches? Absolutely. Have they taken the time to really document getting from Point A to Point B, let alone Point A to Point Z? No friggin way. This is a culture that separates the Men from the Boys. It's not that n00bs aren't welcome. It's that the Max world isn't aware that there are n00bs out there.

There are tuts, that's for sure. Cycling74's site has 'em. But the organization and ease of getting into the whole thing is completely geared towards those types of individuals that clearly have a fair amount of MIDI/audio knowledge. Even the intro tuts are peppered with phase diagrams that, to most of us, might be a way to turn dirt into gold or might be the start of some fancy new oscillator. Who the fuck knows? The geeks. That's who. Fucking n00b.

Getting into something like this, when you are entirely on your own with little or no audio/MIDI/routing knowledge, requires one thing in terms of tuts: ORGANIZATION. The tuts page at Cycling74 could stand with a bit of filtering. Basic intro stuff is sandwiched in between 'HOW TO RUN A 3RD WORLD COUNTRY USING JITTER' and 'TAKING OVER EVERYONE'S TARNCE SETS USING YOUR IPHONE IN 10 EASY STEPS'. Ouch.

Organization is key, but a GUI based programming environment like this is screaming for video tutorials. In fact, the M4L intro video at the Ableton site - in which they build the most basic of patches (a ring modulator?) is EXACTLY how things should start out. It's the only place ANYWHERE that I've seen something so basic in the Max world actually explained. I wonder if Ableton got hate mail from the geeks over that bit of basic pedantry? lol.

I'd love to create something for M4L along the lines of mlrV4Live - which actually takes audio samples from your first 6 clip slots in a live set (after you conveniently hit a button on your controller), dumps them into a patch, and allows you to mangle them via a monome or Launchpad ala a step sequencer type of deal. But I know all too well that I'm going to have to first be content with creating a basic ping pong delay.

[Pasha]

Loopstation Zebra,

I feel you.
I have already created some fancy delay using seeded templates is not that difficult.
... but when it comes to something more then it's like hell.
If I shell out 249 Euros it will be for something I need not for building myself a crappy
delay I can buy everywhere for 49 Euros... but for building innovative devices,
innovative tools. I have always desired to play MIDI sound with my guitar and I know
that in MAX/MSP it's possible, It needs refinement but I have almost all the basic blocks on the table..
even if I do not know how to put them together. For version 0.1 I would expect to be able
to convert my guitar input into a MIDI note although not the correct one.... well to get there
needs more than I have thought..
For example I do not understand the difference between my new audio fx and the seeded ones...
but when I switch from patch mode to presentation mode Live doesn't show anything!
That's frustrating. For noobs maybe it would have been useful to wrap up this complexity
into easier to manipulate opbject, in Live, without exposing the real Max/MSP objects.
This could have been priced lower Euros and with runtime capability. I think that
community will provide some tools & devices pretty soon.

- Best
- Pasha

[Pasha]

I was pretty overwhelmed too, to the point where even though I knew it was going to be like this, I decided that M4L is likely not for me. I'm interested in seeing what other people come up with, but I can't see myself going down the rabbit hole of creating my own devices (at least in the foreseeable future).

I'm relieved to know that you're on the same page as mine.
I consider you a very important opinion here in the forum.
M4L opens endless possibilities, I got a friends who is seriously
thinking to program something like Karma taking advantage of Live
Session view and a Launchpad.. but he's a java programmer.
A part from that I see M4L good for those who want to create
their own devices very far from the usual ones you might expect.
M4L costs like a giant plug-in that lets you build all of your own
stuff. The question is: Do we really need that? Maybe M4L is only for
serious developers, or this has been the first impression so far.

- Best
- Pasha

[LoopStationZebra]

If I shell out 249 Euros it will be for something I need not for building myself a crappy
delay I can buy everywhere for 49 Euros...

If I'm honest with myself, I'll never create anything very complex in Max. Just don't have the time required to get into it. Plain and simple. I'm also not needing anymore effects, lol. Got enough. Playing Max as an instrument via the Launchpad is my real interest, and if we start to get great M4L versions of mlr or mlrV4Live, then that comletely justifies the price tag for me. It's the instrument side of M4L that I'm after.

[technog0d]

@ Technog0d

I just watched your Beginning Max part 1 video and got more out of the 5 mins it took to watch than I did with the lessons included in m4l. Please do some more like that, step by step, well explained lessons by example. That has helped me understand more of the overview of what it is and how to do stuff than reading it off a helpfile did to me, I normally don't have a problem with manuals but for some reason I'm finding this very hard to grasp.

Hearing and seeing somebody explaining it by example is working for me, you should make some more. I'm pretty sure that many other beginners will feel the same way and you'll get a LOT of traffic through your site.

Many thanks.

m

Thanks for the compliment. That was always the intent of my videos. I wanted to create small videos that can teach various aspects of Max and Max For Live. I realized early on that there was going to be an influx of new users that have never even seen Max. I wanted to ensure that these users would not be scared off by the massive amount of data that was out there. I am definitely creating new tutorials all of the time. And again we do take requests. So, if there is an area that you are unclear on, then either respond to this thread or if you don't want people to know it was you, then click the contact button on my site and tell me what you need. We will definitely try to accommodate everyone. Time permitting of course...