MAX4LIVE Q2: Things You Don't Like?

[Gregory Wells-King]

For me so far, and this is coming from someone who's only just started with NI Reaktor recently.

1) It's going to be many many nights in before your able to get the basics of making stuff in Live, I can't use the words 'Modules' or 'Macros' because MAX does everything differently. and my brain only has space for one package like this so it's already very likely I will stick with Reaktor for now, anyway.

2) I was surprized at the 'Plugo Instruments' no self generating noise machines, nothing a bit different, infact lower than the lowest quality freeware, (However?)

3) I was also surprized at the 'Plugo MIDI Devices' the Step Sequencer is great but seems to be the only thing. still I guess you don't need more really, but at the price tag for MAX, I would expect quite a few more drums machines and sequencer developments, (Just for fun)

Sumary: With it's high learning curve, I would hope that both Ableton and Max review the Plugo devices and demonstrate how the user library adds to the package, (If indeed this is true)It is what it is, and your meant to stick with a package like MAX until you can get your head around the programing part, user forums etc, but I have to say, a good library of plugins to come with the package, would help sway the differecne that the Reaktor library has and demonstartates through its fairly easy to understand workspace.

I can't imagine coming up with anything in MAX until I've spent quite a few day's and nights learnig the basics.

[Gregory Taylor]

d00d - it's a *programming environment.* Of course it's going to take a while to build something yourself from the ground up.

You don't walk off the plane in Aix and complain because you can't instantly crank out triolets like a Provencal troubadour. You start with a phrasebook, make some humorous and memorable mistakes, and maybe meet an attractive person of your preferred persuasion with whom you can begin to actually converse. 'twas ever thus.

Perhaps a better question is one that we might answer differently: "Is it likely that Max is going to return your investment of time?" I think that'll depend on the extent to which you see Reaktor as a collection of someone else's work that you download and whack around with vs. something that you actually use to build other things.

Max has really never been about that whole "lots of free trinkets" thing, and I expect that it might take a while for enough users to make and share devices to find things you like. I suspect that if just "having more synths" is what you're about, then stick to the Reaktor you know and are obviously fluent with.

You wanna drive imagery in sync with a set? Write algorithmic devicess that run the Live application itself? Start using timeline aspect of Live to drive other interesting things with Live's clip envelopes and sample-accuracy? Your answer might be different.

The great news? It's a choice *you* get to make. My mileage varies [it started varying the first time I tried to add the ability to play microtonal scales to a Reaktor instrument, in fact. But that's another story ].

[maxforlive]

Edit. Wrong post

[Gregory Wells-King]

I'm glad you explained that to me !

I might of got completely lost in this music meets art thing Pheeew.

Programing is your thing then..?

Can you please make the post 'The things I don't like about MAX not, the things I don't like about other people on the forum, who obviously know less about music/programing and computers than I do' Ta..

Regards.

Self confessed Idiot.

[mzed]

There are a lot of things in the Max Community that you might like. There are a number of third party developers who have made some great stuff that could be easily dragged into live. Look at http://www.maxobjects.com. I used to work at a lab with a big collection of Max Objects and Patches: http://cnmat.berkeley.edu/downloads The stuff that comes with Max (and M4L) are the tip of the iceberg.

mz

[julienb]

things I don't like?
the frontier between live and max for live is too thick and "controlled"
I mean, the hosted patches are constrainted by this not enough permeable interface.

what about sysex? what about complex midi routing or OSC ?

I'm sure they will build things about that, but for now, the UNLIMITED potential of max is very constrainted inside Live.

I'd propose another name: MAX IN LIVE. indeed, max for live was obviously correctly found!


btw, I LOVE and own max/msp since a while, and I LOVE and own live too..!

[TomSwirly]

I'm sympathetic to the Original Poster's concerns.Max has a long learning curve. And Max programs can be hard to debug. And it really requires a huge amount of mousing.

I strongly suggest that OP considers getting into the habit of doing all your control logic in Max's js (Javascript) box. It integrates very well with Max, it's quite fast, and it's a nice high-level language.

As for what I personally don't like about this program... I have only been using it for a few days!

[arachnaut]

I think I started off on the wrong foot when I looked at Max4Live and it left me with a bad initial impression.

Firstly, I knew about the attempts a year or two ago to access the Python API in Live. I did not think that this was the API that was being addressed by MAX4Live.

Secondly, I have worked on APIs in my professional career - low-level Unix sockets, middle-ware in telecommunications, and also middle-ware in consumer digital cameras. This is not to brag, just to say that I bring a lot of my own baggage and preconceived ideas to the situation.

Thirdly, I knew absolutely nothing about Max - what it did or what it was used for. I did view the Max4Live videos at Ableton and let it form my initial impression.

When I viewed that video some time ago, I was left with the impression that I would be in an environment somewhat like Reaktor where I could access a large set of audio objects and I could wire them together and play them in Live.

I thought that since Live was a DAW that had proprietary devices, that the API would be the DAW features and it's devices. I thought that the I/O routings in Live would be inputs and output, plus also there would be things like clip objects and, of course automation. I just assumed that all Live's devices would be native objects and that the devices front panel elements would somehow be accessible. I also hoped that the Live devices would be exposed via methods that would allow some amount of inner control (for example, being able to set the delay line dynamic modes in Live's filter devices - 'Repitch, Fade, Jump').

So when I first downloaded Max4Live the other day, it was quite a different thing altogether that I saw.

I see now that what we have is more Live for Max than Max for Live. Naturally, whatever the API, it had to be written within the architecture of MAX. So we have to immerse Live into a Max environment first. the resultant patch is playable and editable in Live.

There is nothing good or bad about this approach intrinsically, it is just quite a bit different from what I expected.

Max appears to be very powerful and formidable. It has, what 20 years of history?

It took me about 30 minutes to make my first Reaktor synth, going through the tutorials and I quickly modified it fairly easily. But it took me years to feel that I could make something actually useful in Reaktor and there are still many, many things I have yet to try out.

I think a similar thing may happen here. I can do some simple stuff in M4L quickly, but sophisticated stuff that works reliably and efficiently may take quite some time to master.

So I guess, the thing I don't like about M4L is its size. This is a plus and minus, is this the tool you want to earn to extend Live? If so, great, you will be learning something a whole lot more than just that.

Probably the majority won't care, they will just use the preset devices or buy new ones.

I hope a user library grows from this like the Reaktor library. That helped me learn Reaktor as much as any manual and helps sell the product to a wider user base. Probably most Reaktor users never do more than a simple rewiring of existing modules. The same may be true for most M4L users.

[TomSwirly]

So I guess, the thing I don't like about M4L is its size.

I do agree with this, but the fact is that Max/MSP is a mature and fairly complete music and real-time programming environment that's become some sort of standard for artists working with computers over the last decade or so.

And since there are Max boxes to let you write in high-level languages like Javascript and Java, you can do pretty well anything you like.

Reaktor is very cool and I don't know it well enough - I bought it a couple of months ago but haven't really "opened the box" - but it isn't a complete programming system.

[aminoplacid]

I understand some of the concerns expressed. Let's also keep in mind this is the first beta of this integration. There is plenty of room to grow with these products. If there is enough demand over time for, say, access to the live instruments, perhaps that is something Ableton will consider adding to the API.

I have toyed with Reaktor a bit and have enjoyed the user library so I do hope that something like this builds for M4L as well. The maxobjects.com site seems like a good source but an official site for M4L would be good too.

Being a new user to Max/MSP, I get the impression that there is a heavy reliance on the user community for learning as compared to Ableton who have given a lot to users as far as tutorials and examples so this is an area I would hope to see continued growth. I think that they have done well so far with the objects they have built and distributed with M4L so I hope this continues.

Can't say I am disappointed. I see a lot of room for this integration to grow!

[Gregory Wells-King]

I haven't loaded MAX4Live since last week and the time off, has been worth while reviewing evreryones comments and what I thought previous and trying to articulate a new reply.

There are obviously some technical issues relating to the original MAX environment and the one that's now for Live, It's interesting to see the divsion, where for example I would stand on one side of the argument, towards the MAX4Live Package having a low level of programing, to get started, and higher states for addvanced users.

This is what's atractive for people like myslef, with any program, infact to be honest it's the most succesful part of Ableton Live itself. you only need a few minutes plying with lives controls to see that. Infact it's been one of the most liberating experiences of my life.

I'm someone who wants to maybe develop a tool to use inside racks within live, (to make use of Lives on bord devices and stremline the workflow, and have some fun with a comunity who aims to do the same, I never assumed MAX has any shortcomings, (or it's users I might add!). only that for years now, I've been considering how programing on this level and I didn't take me long to realize MAX seems to be a bit of an an exclusive club which unless you already have the necessary skills, could be an expesnive item in your software library which, unless you know how your going to use it, kinda frustrates you with a great set of tools that you don't lknow how to use but just get to know enough to mkae devices that you get get as freeware made by SynthEdit or Synthmaker.

Beleive me I listen to what I'm thinking about this environmet and I don't like it myself, however it's the reality I foind my self with.


I'm not bitter about it, and I would assume over time, things will develop allong those lines, with tutorials and the such, shortening the learning curve and a user library being available Sorry if that seems contrary to beleifs, that MAX4Live is bot deep enough, but I would of thought then you were happy anyway, having the skills to use the raw environemt of MAX.

Whta was it you wanted MAX4LIve to do again?..

Regards

[Dergel]

I think - as a longtime MaxMSP-User and still beginner - your aim shouldn't be to build the same stuff you get for free or littel money all over the market. Don't try to copy the same functionality or sound you get out of millions of synths, fx and presets.

Just start to programm a littel patch and you will start to get ideas: stay with max and the new possibilities of controlling and manipulating data. Try to integrate a wiiremote in your Live-Setup for fun... Than start adding MSP and get lost in new sounds, other people woulnd't identify as intended (or start to make people believe, that the mess you just performed was intended - that's the definition of art ). Than add Jitter and if you have to much time, get into Java (i never started that...).

There are no limits: that's the problem and that's the good news. Don't let that freeze you. Start with small steps and be happy about *your* new ideas of seeing and hearing what you have created! That is, what M4L can really do for you.

All the best,

Dergel

[Tone Deft]

- the incomplete help section in Live.

- I'd like an Idiot's Guide to the Live API. the design document seems really quite thorough and professional but it's still not clear to me what commands I can use.

- no API links into Live's instruments.

- I wish Ableton would stop constricting everything to clip view.

[Electolite]

I think - as a longtime MaxMSP-User and still beginner - your aim shouldn't be to build the same stuff you get for free or littel money all over the market. Don't try to copy the same functionality or sound you get out of millions of synths, fx and presets.

Just start to programm a littel patch and you will start to get ideas: stay with max and the new possibilities of controlling and manipulating data. Try to integrate a wiiremote in your Live-Setup for fun... Than start adding MSP and get lost in new sounds, other people woulnd't identify as intended (or start to make people believe, that the mess you just performed was intended - that's the definition of art ). Than add Jitter and if you have to much time, get into Java (i never started that...).

There are no limits: that's the problem and that's the good news. Don't let that freeze you. Start with small steps and be happy about *your* new ideas of seeing and hearing what you have created! That is, what M4L can really do for you.

All the best,

Dergel

Yes, I quite agree, I think part of the problem is, you really do have to be into the programing environment to justify the time being spent in that way to get the happy accidents, and lucky strikes that make and of these type of programes worth the investment, I can't really say that the means actually (for me that is) justify's the begining, let alone the end, because "in the end" you don't really end up with anything better.

Those of you clever guy's who see oportunity's to make interesting ensembles of 'data/visual content and sound' can go for it with all my best wishes, but for me it's not really adding to my workflow, bringing anything particularly useful, or underpining the possible resulats with Live or other Vsti in the first place.

But who can resist?

Kind Regards.

And for the record. You seem right on the money with your comments, it's good to read sober and balanced view of this issue.

[monolake]

I think - as a longtime MaxMSP-User and still beginner - your aim shouldn't be to build the same stuff you get for free or littel money all over the market. Don't try to copy the same functionality or sound you get out of millions of synths, fx and presets.

Just start to programm a littel patch and you will start to get ideas: stay with max and the new possibilities of controlling and manipulating data. Try to integrate a wiiremote in your Live-Setup for fun... Than start adding MSP and get lost in new sounds, other people woulnd't identify as intended (or start to make people believe, that the mess you just performed was intended - that's the definition of art ). Than add Jitter and if you have to much time, get into Java (i never started that...).

There are no limits: that's the problem and that's the good news. Don't let that freeze you. Start with small steps and be happy about *your* new ideas of seeing and hearing what you have created! That is, what M4L can really do for you.

All the best,

Dergel

Yes, I quite agree, I think part of the problem is, you really do have to be into the programing environment to justify the time being spent in that way to get the happy accidents, and lucky strikes that make and of these type of programes worth the investment, I can't really say that the means actually (for me that is) justify's the begining, let alone the end, because "in the end" you don't really end up with anything better.

Those of you clever guy's who see oportunity's to make interesting ensembles of 'data/visual content and sound' can go for it with all my best wishes, but for me it's not really adding to my workflow, bringing anything particularly useful, or underpining the possible resulats with Live or other Vsti in the first place.

But who can resist?

Kind Regards.

And for the record. You seem right on the money with your comments, it's good to read sober and balanced view of this issue.

The power and beauty of Max is that one can do very simple things that have a great impact. To use those things one does not need to dive deep deep into programming and they do not take forever to code. And since they are simple it is very likely that no plug in manufacturer did bother to build it. Or you have to search the internet for ever to find what you need, while in MAX it can be done in 30 minutes.

Some examples:
- a simple "hold" MIDI device that allows to hold incoming notes for infinite time ( or till you press stop or hit a button )
- a simple MIDI device that makes a monophonic voice from incoming midi notes.
- your own flavor of 'EQ 3'
- a delay line with 20 filtered taps that can feedback
- a BIG song time counter, with either beat time or real time display

etc....

Robert