Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

[ethios4]

@ diskowipe - sorry for the insult, I was mainly just joking around. I don't take this stuff too seriously. My point of contention with you is that you claimed that the output of Live's realtime engine was substantially different than it's rendering engine. You provided no proof of this whatsoever. I took the time to test your claim and the results I got showed you were wrong. At this point you have not retracted your claim, nor have you posted any proof to the contrary. That's really annoying and tells me you are probably more interested in spouting your theories than in actually getting to the bottom of anything. That doesn't make me a fanboy, that means I require proof to be convinced of something which has real world consequences for me.

For example, if you are right about your claims and offered convincing proof, I would probably start looking into Samplitude to try out my mixes on to hear the difference. However, I'm not going to waste my time with that when no proof has been offered.

Villalobos is a great artist. That doesn't mean he has objectivity. Most artists I know are pretty damn subjective actually.

[leedsquietman]

btw - I agree that out of the box mixing is nice and given I honed my skills in the 90s mostly working on an API and Trident consoles with 24" Studer tape machine I'm not making any comparisons to analog, it's a different way of working, but guys as well known as Dave Pensado and Dylan '3D' Dresdow (Christina Aguilera, Pussycat Dolls, Black Eyed Peas, Timbaland and more) are both big proponents that with the plugins and tools available that there is no reason why an ITB mix should sound inferior. It is an adjustment that continues to cause debate. For sure, I have mixes done even on my old Fostex R8 and Soundcraft 24:8 mixer which I think surpass anything I've done in digital, but then again I also have more CONSISTENT mixes in digital. Pros and cons for both.

[macmurphy]

That is a shame. 4/4 will be missed.

We must all tolerate the opinions and insults of others on this board, why did he get picked out? Hands up who hasn't been insulted around here?

No, I thought not. A sad day for democracy.

As for the debate, it only matters to a handful of people, to musicians it matters not a jot. You make good music? Yes? OK. By the way, I don't care what tools you used.

I am playing live tomorrow night using Live and it will sound great, believe me.

4/4 is gone? Did i miss something? What did he do?
I skipped to the second to last page on this thread cos that wipe blokey was giving me a migraine.


*edited*

[crumhorn]

.... claimed that the output of Live's realtime engine was substantially different than it's rendering engine.

forgive me for quoting myself, but my earlier post got drowned in the flood.

... vst offline rendering mode. (google it)

It is a truly retarded design decision made by Steinberg.

Basically when a VST host does off line rendering it is to supposed to set a flag that tells the plugins to use their "best" rendering algorithm. Not all hosts support this and not all plugins respond to it. But many do and it can make a big difference between the real time and rendered versions. Including such idiocies as ignoring your polyphony limits and rendering with infinite polyphony....

Not saying it's definitely the cause of whatever diskowipe is hearing, but it is definitely worth knowing if and how the plugins you use implement this.

[kb420]

4/4 is gone? Did i miss something? What did he do?
I skipped to the second to last page on this thread cos that arsewipe blokey was giving me a migraine.

Just read page 10 of this thread to catch up on the "Forum Gun Chronicles".

[ethios4]

@ crumhorn - interesting read. Thanks for re-posting...I had missed it. The vast majority of tracks did cancel perfectly in my test between realtime and rendered versions, and I can account for the remainders by variability in oscillators, effects, etc. So that makes wonder if Ableton supports this offline rendering mode, and if not I wonder if plugins are rendering in offline or realtime mode in Ableton?

[crumhorn]

I believe Live does support this. Or it did in an earlier version. I use Ivory Piano and got struck by the infinite polyphony feature. My lovely meditative piano improvisation turned to mud in an instant - until I edited the sustain pedal envelope.

I guess most plugs don't support it, or support it in ways that you might not notice. But enough, probably, do support it to at least explain why some people get different results when rendering.

[ChiDJ]

I could give a rats arse about bounce. This isn't our forum. It's Ableton's world and we just live in it. I am grateful to have this forum and it's freedom.

This whole argument about LIVE versus other DAW's is so complicated because we all use different language with multiple meanings to try and describe "better".

Sample accurate, More headroom, cleaner, less aliasing etc...

I've used LIVE since version 1. I love it. There's nothing like it. LIVE has created a new way for me to create. The warp feature allowed me to audition infinite loops even before I brought them into the program. It greatly simplified my workflow and allowed me to focus on my music rather than technical bullshit.

The simplicity of LIVE allowed many users who, previously were intimidated by DAW's, to make the move and try production. LIVE opened the door for many artists who may have never become producers without LIVE.

Thus the beauty of LIVE and, IMHO, one of the reasons for this debate.

LIVE + new technology + less costly access to music production = more producers.

Before LIVE a "producer" had to possess a greater more diverse knowledge base as well as a significant amount of cash in order to have the tools.

So, today we have 20 year veterans and 20 year olds discussing audio production and trying to understand each other.

Thus the problem.

WE DON"T UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER and WE HEAR THINGS DIFFERENTLY.

So this debate will continue for a very long time.

"Trust Your ears" can only apply to those of us who have trained our ears.

"Blame the artist, Not the Tools" only applies to those of us who have become accomplished producers through experience.

/rant...

I'm sure I just stirred things up more, but

"I'm just sayin'"

[leedsquietman]

great post Tod

[superistic]

wow. great point.

nothing but name calling. I like that my lack of tunes in my sig pisses off people like you. it used to drive me to finish songs, now I know I'd rather piss you off than seek your approval. I could also start over with a new name and change my post count, but that also pisses off dimwits like you when they get backed into a corner, it's a sign of weakness. you're scared, you lose. kthxbye.

you didn't address the question and everybody has pretty much refuted your crap. what a n00b argument, grow up.

good luck on your next trolling adventure. try it, we're much better at it and there's more of us than you.

Tone Deft = legend

[Machinesworking]

It's Ableton's world and we just live in it. I am grateful to have this forum and it's freedom.

oxymoron much? You I guess mean you're grateful for the amount of freedom they allow.

I get all that, it's just that I really though Robert Henke was on to something with a long statement he made in some thread about getting more moderation on the boards. He basically stated that any amount of moderation brings with it the unfavorable problem of justice not being served equally etc.

AFA this debate about Lives audio engine etc. it's garbage, the only real reason to use other DAWs for mix down is better automation control etc. DP and Logic at least both have multiple ways automation gets written on a per track basis, this can be really useful when ridding faders. In Live it's not as easy to get clinical with automation, for the very same reason people love Live, because it gives you no choice about the way automation is written.

Live and Sonar both have 64bit engines compared to Pro Tools 48, so the whole master fader trick from Roger doesn't matter as much. It's more like a way to get your brain to be aware of levels than any real help. Didn't used to be true, but it is now.

[ChiDJ]

@ Machinesworking. I thought about it and, no. I don't think it's an oxymoron. Freedom isn't absolute. I believe there are degrees of freedom and this forum has a greater degree than any other I participate in.

"I'm just sayin'".

Tod

[Sage]

As far as I was aware, mixing is just about making sure all the sounds are nicely balanced with each other. I've never struggled to do that in Ableton, or any other DAW, so can only assume that whoever can't do that is retarded or has no interest in mixing audio.

Problem with software is too many idiots have access to it and feel they need to argue about every last pointless little detail. You don't see huge threads on forums where people start slating Neve because their consoles colour the sound more than a SSL does, because it doesn't fucking matter.

Ableton helps me make music, that's all that matters. Sample accurate, Summing Bus, Audio Engine is all nonsense to me.

[Tone Deft]

this is still going on?

never before has so little been said by so much.

[ChiDJ]

this is still going on?

never before has so little been said by so much.

you mean "many" right?

Have I said too much?