Notation in Live 9?

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
crumhorn
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Re: Notation in Live 9?

Post by crumhorn » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:30 am

UnitedElectric wrote:Those who say that notation is somehow an inferior musical communication tool are clueless. Educate yourselfs. Some day you should take a glance at one of the scores of Gyorgy Ligeti or Schoenberg. Yes, music has been made easier to produce by tools like Ableton. Kind of makes you wonder how the greats ever got by right? I mean, what was all that horrid scribbling that caused the Riot of Spring?

Listen, I make elctronic music and Hip-Hop like most of the rest on this board. I also compose orchestral work but I don't kid myself by thinking I'm making 'important' music. Neither should you. That being said, notation in Ableton would be great for those of us who write for live musicians.
It depends on who or what you are trying to communicate with. It is not well adapted for communicating with a computer program because it requires too much interpretation, and it is not very useful for people that have not learned it. A program like Live needs an interface that gives the majority of potential users the greatest degree of control over the program.

A musical score is only loosely coupled to the actual musical performance, which can be very different from one performance to another.

8 levels of velocity (ppp, pp, p, mp, mf, f, ff, fff) is a good enough guide for a human player who can interpret it their own way. But 127 velocity levels allowed by MIDI is barely enough to describe your exact intentions to a computer. Similar restrictions apply to the note timing.

Also the kind of scores you mention would be out of scope for all but the most advanced scoring programs.

I can't post a Ven diagram, but you can probably imagine it anyway. Draw circles for the user groups of each major DAW. Now draw the circle for all the people that would use a score editor. My guess is that their would be very little overlap for any particular DAW but more than enough users to justify the development of excellent software like Sibelius.

I would love it if some MAX genius would produce a graphical visualization tool using M4L though. Something similar to the visual scores produced by certain composers using PD. Using lines, shapes and colours to represent musical data.

Example:
Image
http://at.or.at/hans/solitude/

Something like that would be cool.
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stringtapper
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Re: Notation in Live 9?

Post by stringtapper » Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:10 pm

davepermen wrote:and yeah, i'm against notation myself, too. they are ancient and needlessly complicated for their task.
Right, because teaching each individual part to each section of a chamber ensemble by rote is so much less complicated than just handing out printed parts and saying "go." :roll:
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silveriofunk
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Re: Notation in Live 9?

Post by silveriofunk » Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:53 pm

IMO i think that ableton should be focusing on other things...

Pasha
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Re: Notation in Live 9?

Post by Pasha » Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:18 pm

silveriofunk wrote:IMO i think that ableton should be focusing on other things...
+1 GUI is close to perfection...
Mac Studio M1
Live 12 Suite,Zebra ,Valhalla Plugins, MIDI Guitar (2+3),Guitar, Bass, VG99, GP10, JV1010 and some controllers
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KrisM
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Re: Notation in Live 9?

Post by KrisM » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:12 pm

I love notation but I don't want to see it in Live. If I want to write out a score I'll use something already made for, and specialized for, the task.

Live is good at what it does. I'd rather the devs focus on things to make it better at that.

Like the audio engine! :mrgreen: I'm just teasing :wink:
I don't 'produce.' I write music.

hereschenes
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Re: Notation in Live 9?

Post by hereschenes » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:32 pm

Music notation features along the lines of what is available in Logic Pro would be great, and would really suit my own needs. For me, midi editing on a stave is much more intuitive than it is on the current midi editor. Also, it would be nice to be able to print off a bass part (for example) and give it to someone to record live. YMMV.

UnitedElectric
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Re: Notation in Live 9?

Post by UnitedElectric » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:55 am

crumhorn wrote:
UnitedElectric wrote:Those who say that notation is somehow an inferior musical communication tool are clueless. Educate yourselfs. Some day you should take a glance at one of the scores of Gyorgy Ligeti or Schoenberg. Yes, music has been made easier to produce by tools like Ableton. Kind of makes you wonder how the greats ever got by right? I mean, what was all that horrid scribbling that caused the Riot of Spring?

Listen, I make elctronic music and Hip-Hop like most of the rest on this board. I also compose orchestral work but I don't kid myself by thinking I'm making 'important' music. Neither should you. That being said, notation in Ableton would be great for those of us who write for live musicians.
It depends on who or what you are trying to communicate with. It is not well adapted for communicating with a computer program because it requires too much interpretation, and it is not very useful for people that have not learned it. A program like Live needs an interface that gives the majority of potential users the greatest degree of control over the program.

A musical score is only loosely coupled to the actual musical performance, which can be very different from one performance to another.

8 levels of velocity (ppp, pp, p, mp, mf, f, ff, fff) is a good enough guide for a human player who can interpret it their own way. But 127 velocity levels allowed by MIDI is barely enough to describe your exact intentions to a computer. Similar restrictions apply to the note timing.

Also the kind of scores you mention would be out of scope for all but the most advanced scoring programs.

I can't post a Ven diagram, but you can probably imagine it anyway. Draw circles for the user groups of each major DAW. Now draw the circle for all the people that would use a score editor. My guess is that their would be very little overlap for any particular DAW but more than enough users to justify the development of excellent software like Sibelius.

I would love it if some MAX genius would produce a graphical visualization tool using M4L though. Something similar to the visual scores produced by certain composers using PD. Using lines, shapes and colours to represent musical data.

Example:
Image
http://at.or.at/hans/solitude/

Something like that would be cool.
I hear you. I interface with humans alot and they usually don't respond to midi. Hence, my use of notation software. The software itself isn't really too complicated or resource heavy. You can score anything you please with it with the right resolution. I personally would love to have that feature in Live. Speaking of visual scores, check this out, a visual tweak of Ligetis classic Artikulation from the '70s:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71hNl_skTZQ

KrisM
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Re: Notation in Live 9?

Post by KrisM » Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:19 pm

A thought comes to mind. Apparently Pro Tools ships with Sibelus, now? Maybe Ableton could do something of a notation extension for those who want it, like M4L. Call it S4L. Sell it for... whatever price. Of course that might piss off some who want notation included in a newer version, but it'll save those of us who don't want it money :D And Ableton just has to figure a way to interface them, vs reinventing the wheel. Unless they're down with a new wheel, of course.
I don't 'produce.' I write music.

Tytus
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Re: Notation in Live 9?

Post by Tytus » Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:17 pm

i think ppl are over thinking this. Yes there are better notation programs out there but it would be nice to have Live simply convert midi notes from the piano roll into sheet music. Much easier than me exporting a midi file then have Logic do the conversion.

pulsoc
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Re: Notation in Live 9?

Post by pulsoc » Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:14 am

lol no one that uses live knows how to read music

gjm
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Re: Notation in Live 9?

Post by gjm » Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:07 am

KrisM wrote:A thought comes to mind. Apparently Pro Tools ships with Sibelus, now? Maybe Ableton could do something of a notation extension for those who want it, like M4L. Call it S4L. Sell it for... whatever price. Of course that might piss off some who want notation included in a newer version, but it'll save those of us who don't want it money :D And Ableton just has to figure a way to interface them, vs reinventing the wheel. Unless they're down with a new wheel, of course.
+1
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hanst
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Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:10 pm

Re: Notation in Live 9?

Post by hanst » Wed May 26, 2010 4:27 pm

There is an option already, but you could see it as an add-on to Max 4 Live. MaxScore, developed by my friends Nick Didkovsky and Georg Hajdu, was written years ago in JMSL + Max/MSP to allow for standard western notation in Max/MSP, and is now running fine with Max 4 Live.

http://www.algomusic.com/maxscore/

The fun part is that you can drive any parameter in M4L from the score, or you can create a score interactively from the parameters in M4L, which goes beyond the capabilities of Finale or Sibelius.

As for the question whether you NEED notation or not, I wouldn't sweat it. There is music you need it for, and others you don't. I've heard great music with and without notation... ;-)))

Have fun! Hans

Dennis DeSantis
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Re: Notation in Live 9?

Post by Dennis DeSantis » Wed May 26, 2010 4:47 pm

Hi folks,

Notation is an enormously complicated thing to get right, and the great notation programs are really much more closely aligned to desktop publishing/typesetting software than audio software.

Best,
Dennis DeSantis
[email protected]

shimmy
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Re: Notation in Live 9?

Post by shimmy » Wed May 26, 2010 5:00 pm

Ah ha, he didn't say NO to the question.
So, it still could be a feature in 9 !
Last edited by shimmy on Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

HeadrickProductions
Posts: 612
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Re: Notation in Live 9?

Post by HeadrickProductions » Wed May 26, 2010 5:12 pm

Dennis DeSantis wrote:Hi folks,

Notation is an enormously complicated thing to get right, and the great notation programs are really much more closely aligned to desktop publishing/typesetting software than audio software.

Best,

Glad to hear this is not on the table.

For those folks who really need this Notation they should take a look into a great product

http://www.sibelius.com/products/sibelius/6/index.html

Albeton does not need to try to rival a product that is already done very well and can be rewired into live at anytime.



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