on 'listening' and 'use your ears'

[SubFunk]

Cool, thanks for the advice. Neb recommended some Mackie monitors that I'm considering. I'm thinking I'll get those first, then bass treatment for the room, then maybe a sub. I had a sub before and it just made the bass problems of the room much worse....basically I still had to do the same listening tests on different systems anyway.

As for the Alesis monitors I have now, the frequency response is not nearly flat enough I think. It exaggerates the mid-high frequency, which always causes friends to exclaim at how good they sound, but in practice I always have to compensate when mixing or I end up with a dull sounding mix on every other system.

When it comes to mixing bass, lately I've been taking the project over to a friends house and mixing the bass on his PA system with big subs. It actually works surprisingly well for hearing those very very subtle differences in EQing bass, where moving a cut just a few Hz over makes a big difference.

+1 to the 'whole picture'. It amazed me to learn that the mids mix has a big impact on how the bass mix sounds, etc.

one more word on monitor recommendations... go and listen and choose for yourself!!!

just saying. for me for example mackie's are the most horrifying monitors that have ever seen the light of day.

you might love them... like thousands of others... all i want to say really MAKE YOUR OWN CHOICE, especially when it comes to monitors... go out and listen to several models with a variety of material of music you take into the shop.

[SubFunk]

But, we're talking about obtaining optimal monitoring results aren't we? To mix everything, one has to hear everything? Yes?

yes.

[Rave]

But, how can I make my kick drum, like, the loudest in the whole worldz?

You need to put a donk on it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckMvj1piK58

[ChiDJ]

Also a Big thumbs down on Mackies and Alesis.

[SubFunk]

Also a Big thumbs down on Mackies and Alesis.

yeah, but i didn't wanted to place a personal opinion here... (even it is easy for me to name my personal fave under any circumstances )

i rather wanted to point out the importance of choosing your own, especially when it comes to monitoring... it's the one thing you should take your time with and walk into shops and listen a few times to different systems with different music (always take the same music) and listen for yourself.

[kb420]

Personally I'd rather have a good set of full range speakers than a sub, at least initially. Fairly often I master stuff from people who have subs and it seems to only make issues worse. Takes a lot of work to set up a sub properly, in terms of placement and needing the proper bass trapping. All too often it seems like people get a bass just for the BOOM and not merely to extend the low end. Plus I think you need a decent sized room for a sub too. In a small to medium sized room, I'd say skip the sub and just get better monitors. Add bass-trapping over time, and THEN start thinking about a sub.

Just my $.02

+1

a good mix is not about BOOM, it is about the 'whole picture' then the BOOM and more then you ever want of it, is coming by itself.

I'm kinda surprised that a guy with the alias SUBfunk isn't recommending a sub woofer!!!!

[ethios4]

Good call on choosing for myself. When the time comes I'll go spend a day hanging out at the music store with a bunch of my favorite CDs.

The good things about my Alesis monitors is that I've had them for 10 years so I know them really well now. I don't ever recommend them if someone asks though.

[Tarekith]

Yes, definitely try and listen to as many as you can before you buy. Ideally with them in the same position for the best comparison. Having a wall of speakers and them A/Bing them without them in the same location is not a very good comparison.

Personally I like Alesis M1's (best speaker under $500 IMO) and Mackie's (824's have served me very well for years). Past a certain point it's all personal preference, so take people's recommendations, but keep an open mind too. I'm going to be upgrading my monitors this year too, so going through all this myself at the moment.

[SubFunk]

Past a certain point it's all personal preference, so take people's recommendations, but keep an open mind too. I'm going to be upgrading my monitors this year too, so going through all this myself at the moment.

what he says.

[SubFunk]

Personally I'd rather have a good set of full range speakers than a sub, at least initially. Fairly often I master stuff from people who have subs and it seems to only make issues worse. Takes a lot of work to set up a sub properly, in terms of placement and needing the proper bass trapping. All too often it seems like people get a bass just for the BOOM and not merely to extend the low end. Plus I think you need a decent sized room for a sub too. In a small to medium sized room, I'd say skip the sub and just get better monitors. Add bass-trapping over time, and THEN start thinking about a sub.

Just my $.02

+1

a good mix is not about BOOM, it is about the 'whole picture' then the BOOM and more then you ever want of it, is coming by itself.

I'm kinda surprised that a guy with the alias SUBfunk isn't recommending a sub woofer!!!!

, well that just came from the fact that i am totally into anything underground (electronica music mainly) that has a tad of energy and is funky, hence SUB : underground.

could have chosen actually also my real name or artist name, but i started once on another board with that and kept it...

[gjm]

...bottom line is that often people answer with the phrase to 'use your ears' or to 'listen' properly and then to decide what is sounding good to you and what not.
this is the RIGHT answer. period...

Respectfully Sub, even though this is the right answer, its often not the right answer to give. Noobs lack reference points. Decisions made using the ears involve not only personal taste built on experience, but also logical linear reasoning that can be defended with detail. The thing about "Use your ears" as an answer is that it is an incomplete answer.

I am often saying to my 15 year old son "Use your head" when discussing matters of conduct. What I am saying (and expecting) is that he thinks about possible consequences for his actions before he goes and commits himself. Although this is the right answer to give because it puts the decision making process into his court, its often an incomplete answer because his field of experience in certain matters is small or non existent. I am often having to fill in details via my experience to help him see possible chains of events. I have to provide details to fill in the blanks that his experience currently lacks. The school of hard knocks is a great learning tool. I am not trying to short circuit his essential learning rather I am trying to help him avoid costly mistakes.

I really appreciate the people who included their reasoning behind their choices. The additional details help me learn from other peoples experiences and challenge me to remove the blinders that I often walk around with.

[knotkranky]

When I was a wee lad working from analog tape, there were no visual cues apart from a VU meter wiggling about. You only knew what was there from listening. No waveforms, no transients to measure, no part to see coming up next, no clipping to view, etc. It was a mystery what was on a track before you actually played the sound itself. Every decision was based on only the ears. You responded to the sound and nothing else. I know for a fact that it helped me develop my keen hearing because there was much less to rely on. No choice being a good thing in this instance, as it often is in production. There's simply too many distractions in computer production. A lot of the visual conveniences have made listening more difficult imo.

[kb420]

When I was a wee lad working from analog tape, there were no visual cues apart from a VU meter wiggling about. You only knew what was there from listening. No waveforms, no transients to measure, no part to see coming up next, no clipping to view, etc. It was a mystery what was on a track before you actually played the sound itself. Every decision was based on only the ears. You responded to the sound and nothing else. I know for a fact that it helped me develop my keen hearing because there was much less to rely on. No choice being a good thing in this instance, as it often is in production. There's simply too many distractions in computer production. A lot of the visual conveniences have made listening more difficult imo.

Fair enough, but in some ways analog was more forgiving, especially when you are talking about clipping.

[Tone Deft]

I think the point has been made before that when one tweaks a setting in Live it's best to not look at the screen when you're tweaking the effect. don't let your eyes affect the result.

[knotkranky]

When I was a wee lad working from analog tape, there were no visual cues apart from a VU meter wiggling about. You only knew what was there from listening. No waveforms, no transients to measure, no part to see coming up next, no clipping to view, etc. It was a mystery what was on a track before you actually played the sound itself. Every decision was based on only the ears. You responded to the sound and nothing else. I know for a fact that it helped me develop my keen hearing because there was much less to rely on. No choice being a good thing in this instance, as it often is in production. There's simply too many distractions in computer production. A lot of the visual conveniences have made listening more difficult imo.

Fair enough, but in some ways analog was more forgiving, especially when you are talking about clipping.

I'm going to have to disagree. Analog is way more difficult to use. noise floor was a paltry 65db on a good machine. Keeping noise out of an ongoing project with generation loss at very turn takes expertise. Gain structure was god, Setup, calibration, parts wear out, project loses hi-end super fast after too many plays, yada yada yada.... Clipping was smeared with analog tape but we didn't rely on that, we just did our best with ears. I'm really glad and done with tape. Working with audio is freakin kindergarten today.