syncing 2 computers via usb

[3phase]

actually a good point why do 2 computers need 2 midi interfaces to have time stamped midi comunication with each other?

wouldnt it be possible to have a emulated midi interface that enures precise timing?

[julienb]

is there a guide on how to do this?

yeah its called: The Internet

...basically its creating a network, or more specifically, a home network. a lot of your success will depend on what OS you're using. The OP has 3 different OS flavors so it may be harder for him than someone with 2 Macs or 2 XP machines, but the fundamentals are still the same.

Look up:
NetBIOS
TCP/IP
UDP

I was referring to a way to send midi over an IP protocol.

indeed
for my opinion, it is the best way.
you could code your own protocol over serial over usb ... but it would sound a bit like "reinventing the wheel"

[H20nly]

^
the protocols i listed transfer data. Thats what MIDI is, data. I'm talking basic network fundamentals and you're talking about MIDI as if its above that or somehow different or able to circumvent the networking level of the OSI model via USB.

Its above networking on the OSI model in terms of... it ain't gonna happen if you don't establish a network connection. Or, to put it another way, networking your computers comes first. Then, after you have established a properly networked line of communication, you can begin to worry about MIDI - which by the way is only one step under the application layer which is the top most, or last, level of the OSI model. in this case, last means last. This is where the GUI and the end user meet and where I'm guessing you'll be looking for answers or, at least, for Live to do something differently.

If you want to treat MIDI as if it has some power that ignores all that, thats okay. It won't change networking in the least. however, if visions of MIDI working without networking is the path you choose to maintain I would suggest using MIDI cables. that way it can seem as though you've risen above it while you patch directly in to it.



Have fun.

[julienb]

^
the protocols i listed transfer data. Thats what MIDI is, data. I'm talking basic network fundamentals and you're talking about MIDI as if its above that or somehow different or able to circumvent the networking level of the OSI model via USB.

Its above networking on the OSI model in terms of... it ain't gonna happen if you don't establish a network connection. Or, to put it another way, networking your computers comes first. Then, after you have established a properly networked line of communication, you can begin to worry about MIDI - which by the way is only one step under the application layer which is the top most, or last, level of the OSI model. in this case, last means last. This is where the GUI and the end user meet and where I'm guessing you'll be looking for answers or, at least, for Live to do something differently.

If you want to treat MIDI as if it has some power that ignores all that, thats okay. It won't change networking in the least. however, if visions of MIDI working without networking is the path you choose to maintain I would suggest using MIDI cables. that way it can seem as though you've risen above it while you patch directly in to it.



Have fun.

indeed, MIDI is high-level part of the OSI
if I was jamief, I would use basic midi cable too.
but if the two computers would be 2000km far... indeed, I'd use internet for that

[jamief]

^
the protocols i listed transfer data. Thats what MIDI is, data. I'm talking basic network fundamentals and you're talking about MIDI as if its above that or somehow different or able to circumvent the networking level of the OSI model via USB.

Its above networking on the OSI model in terms of... it ain't gonna happen if you don't establish a network connection. Or, to put it another way, networking your computers comes first. Then, after you have established a properly networked line of communication, you can begin to worry about MIDI - which by the way is only one step under the application layer which is the top most, or last, level of the OSI model. in this case, last means last. This is where the GUI and the end user meet and where I'm guessing you'll be looking for answers or, at least, for Live to do something differently.

If you want to treat MIDI as if it has some power that ignores all that, thats okay. It won't change networking in the least. however, if visions of MIDI working without networking is the path you choose to maintain I would suggest using MIDI cables. that way it can seem as though you've risen above it while you patch directly in to it.



Have fun.

indeed, MIDI is high-level part of the OSI
if I was jamief, I would use basic midi cable too.
but if the two computers would be 2000km far... indeed, I'd use internet for that

Yes well i was hoping that and thinking al ot about ( at times) live jamming between two instances of live running over the internet for agood number of years just like cubases failed rocket network.
In fact it is possible to stream live sound through something as simple as yahoo messenger along with a webcam so you can see the other musicians to interact with each other.
i am running a 10 meg broadband connection and my partner is also running maybe 3 meg. But we would upgrade our speeds to the 50 or so meg available if it was possible to work together live over te net. As it is we share patches and and live sets over the web by directly passing them between ourselves either over Humyo or yahoo messenger( messenger will let you send files directly upto 2GB)
We had hoped to use the share feature to simplify things but that is now postponed by ableton as you know.
i am serious about this. for all sorts of good reasons.

but back to the sync issue we bascially need to run 2 laptops when we are playing out live. They need to be synced and i know it should be simple and reliable but my expereince with live since version 1 is that it is not that straightforward or reliable.

Best

[julienb]

^
the protocols i listed transfer data. Thats what MIDI is, data. I'm talking basic network fundamentals and you're talking about MIDI as if its above that or somehow different or able to circumvent the networking level of the OSI model via USB.

Its above networking on the OSI model in terms of... it ain't gonna happen if you don't establish a network connection. Or, to put it another way, networking your computers comes first. Then, after you have established a properly networked line of communication, you can begin to worry about MIDI - which by the way is only one step under the application layer which is the top most, or last, level of the OSI model. in this case, last means last. This is where the GUI and the end user meet and where I'm guessing you'll be looking for answers or, at least, for Live to do something differently.

If you want to treat MIDI as if it has some power that ignores all that, thats okay. It won't change networking in the least. however, if visions of MIDI working without networking is the path you choose to maintain I would suggest using MIDI cables. that way it can seem as though you've risen above it while you patch directly in to it.



Have fun.

indeed, MIDI is high-level part of the OSI
if I was jamief, I would use basic midi cable too.
but if the two computers would be 2000km far... indeed, I'd use internet for that

Yes well i was hoping that and thinking al ot about ( at times) live jamming between two instances of live running over the internet for agood number of years just like cubases failed rocket network.
In fact it is possible to stream live sound through something as simple as yahoo messenger along with a webcam so you can see the other musicians to interact with each other.
i am running a 10 meg broadband connection and my partner is also running maybe 3 meg. But we would upgrade our speeds to the 50 or so meg available if it was possible to work together live over te net. As it is we share patches and and live sets over the web by directly passing them between ourselves either over Humyo or yahoo messenger( messenger will let you send files directly upto 2GB)
We had hoped to use the share feature to simplify things but that is now postponed by ableton as you know.
i am serious about this. for all sorts of good reasons.

but back to the sync issue we bascially need to run 2 laptops when we are playing out live. They need to be synced and i know it should be simple and reliable but my expereince with live since version 1 is that it is not that straightforward or reliable.

Best

http://nerds.de/en/ipmidi.html could be a solution.
but I may miss something, did you find your solution ? or still looking for it?

[jamief]

Hello Julienb yes that looks v interesting
Q: I want to jam with my friends remotely: will ipMIDI permit that?

A: No, ipMIDI does not transfer data over the Internet. An TCP/ip add-on is planned, then it will be possible for example to sync two sequencers over the Internet. However, jamming together will only be possible with a delay, because there is no internet real-time solution (even with the so-called "real-time protocols") to inherent latency.

also

Q: Can I use a Wireless network?

A: Yes, The following three prerequisite must be fulfilled:

You should be in the same room—remember, any packet loss also means MIDI data loss! To ensure a good connection position your computers for the best signal strength (for example, try to avoid a wall between the computers). If you cannot avoid a separating wall or if you doubt the validity of the connection, try the above test.
Update to the latest wlan network card driver and/or access point firmware. Do it! Especially the first Generation of Centrino™ based Notebooks were not fully multicast capable.
Disable PSP (Power Save Polling) and set the adapter to CAM (continually aware mode). In a mobile environment, power save polling mode is a feature for extended battery life for mobile stations. ipMIDI (and other real-time streaming apps) will extremely jitter with PSP. ipMIDI comes with a step by step description how to disable PSP and how to setup a wireless connection.


this looks the right idea. It will be a short while before i get the proper chance to get to grips withj this and tets it true potiental and error free timing.
Nice one !

best

[rutgermuller]

http://cycling74.com/2006/10/23/network ... ng-to-max/

[julienb]

Hello Julienb yes that looks v interesting
Q: I want to jam with my friends remotely: will ipMIDI permit that?

A: No, ipMIDI does not transfer data over the Internet. An TCP/ip add-on is planned, then it will be possible for example to sync two sequencers over the Internet. However, jamming together will only be possible with a delay, because there is no internet real-time solution (even with the so-called "real-time protocols") to inherent latency.

also

Q: Can I use a Wireless network?

A: Yes, The following three prerequisite must be fulfilled:

You should be in the same room—remember, any packet loss also means MIDI data loss! To ensure a good connection position your computers for the best signal strength (for example, try to avoid a wall between the computers). If you cannot avoid a separating wall or if you doubt the validity of the connection, try the above test.
Update to the latest wlan network card driver and/or access point firmware. Do it! Especially the first Generation of Centrino™ based Notebooks were not fully multicast capable.
Disable PSP (Power Save Polling) and set the adapter to CAM (continually aware mode). In a mobile environment, power save polling mode is a feature for extended battery life for mobile stations. ipMIDI (and other real-time streaming apps) will extremely jitter with PSP. ipMIDI comes with a step by step description how to disable PSP and how to setup a wireless connection.


this looks the right idea. It will be a short while before i get the proper chance to get to grips withj this and tets it true potiental and error free timing.
Nice one !

best

jamming through the internet...
monolake / deadbeat did that: http://monolake.de/installations/atlantic_waves.html
step sequencer is now available through m4L
it could be a way to explore

about delays involved in network communication, it all depends what you'll design and which data would be tranported.
if you need to send a midi note on message to be played on the remote computer... wow.. latency would make it hard.
if you need to send a trigger message, there would be less problem. why? because the little trigger message would be received and the internal clock would process it synchronously with the local system (even if there is a delay with the emitter system)

if audio should be share... wow... it will be a problem.