Quality

[Angstrom]

Confirmation bias?

I did notice that most of the posts in that forum were ironically hinting that Live 8 did not come with the platinum helicopter I wanted. Personally I find that bug the most unacceptable of all. I specifically dreamed of that helicopter and the lack of it is the reason I cannot make any music whatsoever and is way more important than dull old "crashing" or "hanging", which are barely even bugs in comparison.

my best moment in 2009 was when 2000 people looked at me after the 32 bit bug appeared the first time live on stage and showed what a 42 db peak can do on a 20 k pa... all theese eyes said..why have you done that to us..everbody has stopped dancing..great.. much better than a crash..

and this was only the fun part..reporting the issues in the forum leaded to being called a ranter by an ableton employe..
my support case was dropped.. half a year later they considred the bugs...

what helicopter are you talking about?

and arent the grouptracks most shitty implemented? they are not even folowing abletons own graphical conventions..

sure.. when this all comes with a helicopter i shouldnt complain.

I looked for your thread as I have not experienced this bug myself, http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php? ... 69&start=0
I see they fixed that one in version 8.1.1 , you will be glad to know

Oddly I saw no mention of you being a ranter, or actually any Ableton employee in that thread. You seem to reply to Hoffman2k as if he were an employee of Ableton there though, which is incorrect.

The clue that your bug was picked up is actually the [AWI] prefix, which indicates that Alex has noted it. Alex does not post in your thread.

[taoyoyo]

Good on Ableton for putting their hands up and saying 'we screwed up'... that's very unusual in this current 'blame culture'. I wish them the best for a speedy bug squashing new year.

Having been busier than I would have like with 'real work' this year I haven't spent enough time making music (but more than enough cash on stuff to make music with... APC, Kore, Maschine) but have been considering doing the majority of the composing in Logic (mainly due to them pesky CPU-munching instrument plug-ins in Live) and then dragging the audio into Live.

I had a bit of a revelation yesterday when opening Logic and it felt almost like a stranger to me... I realized that I've formed some sort of bond with Live and the way that the APC (and also Stray's Native Kontrol patches) allow me to interact with it.

It's not perfect, there's some major stuff that really needs sorting out (Session view automation, CPU optimization in both midi and audio areas, those pesky bugs etc) but I just found *my* DAW, even though it's taken a good few years.

... and here's Bob with the weather.

[ikeaboy]

[
Confirmation bias?

You are wright..its not ironical.. i got folled by this statememts there :
Oh yeah, Ableton Live management.

This could mean two things:
1. they are all messed up
2. they have really been messing up

Assuming Ableton screwed up royally it is the right thing to do but overly heroic. How bad could it be to stop everything? Software will always have bugs - it's the nature of the beast. Of all the software I've seen in 35 years, Sonar is relatively bug free. It is however extremely flexible and complex. The learning curve is high but that's life.

Very open for the big guys to admit it; however, I've been a part of those sweeping statements. It takes people to fix problems not statements.

They are admitting the obvious status of their product as reported by their user base and addressing those issues with the highest priority level I have ever heard of by a major developer in the software industry.

After a little bit of googling, it appears that some major talent has left to do their own thing.

True enough. But the endless elaboration of buggy upgrades is at odds with fixing the bugs in current releases. Unless there is a software developer with infinite resources, a choice has to be made. A new and lucrative version or a bunch of bug fixes that will net you nothing except good will (and possibly repeat business). Or you can charge for the bug fixes and piss off all your customers who think the release should work as specified in the first place.

Frankly, I hope this turns out to be a HUGE [good) thing for them. Imagine a company that stops introducing a few new features while they introduce 100 new bugs and instead spends time fixing the bugs?

?? is he talking about max for christmas?

The first and the last two. The rest are clean to me. I take it your not having a nice time with Live 8? Am I on to something? Why not switch to something else? Is it becasue nothing else will do the same job as good as Ableton Live will?

[3phase]

[
Confirmation bias?

You are wright..its not ironical.. i got folled by this statememts there :
Oh yeah, Ableton Live management.

This could mean two things:
1. they are all messed up
2. they have really been messing up

Assuming Ableton screwed up royally it is the right thing to do but overly heroic. How bad could it be to stop everything? Software will always have bugs - it's the nature of the beast. Of all the software I've seen in 35 years, Sonar is relatively bug free. It is however extremely flexible and complex. The learning curve is high but that's life.

Very open for the big guys to admit it; however, I've been a part of those sweeping statements. It takes people to fix problems not statements.

They are admitting the obvious status of their product as reported by their user base and addressing those issues with the highest priority level I have ever heard of by a major developer in the software industry.

After a little bit of googling, it appears that some major talent has left to do their own thing.

True enough. But the endless elaboration of buggy upgrades is at odds with fixing the bugs in current releases. Unless there is a software developer with infinite resources, a choice has to be made. A new and lucrative version or a bunch of bug fixes that will net you nothing except good will (and possibly repeat business). Or you can charge for the bug fixes and piss off all your customers who think the release should work as specified in the first place.

Frankly, I hope this turns out to be a HUGE [good) thing for them. Imagine a company that stops introducing a few new features while they introduce 100 new bugs and instead spends time fixing the bugs?

?? is he talking about max for christmas?

The first and the last two. The rest are clean to me. I take it your not having a nice time with Live 8? Am I on to something? Why not switch to something else? Is it becasue nothing else will do the same job as good as Ableton Live will?

is it because the decission to trust in this little companie and leaving the c-lab platform after 18 years has resultet in 500 gb material over the last 7 or 8 years? i still need to access because i like to work with well hung loops?

and why should i leave my investment behind? they shoud get theier act together and deliver the functionality promissed with live 8.. of cause without letal bugs...

crashig when using midi or 42 db level peaks are letal bugs for the performing artist...compatibility with any plug n the world is nice but not the most important thing...

bugs that crash in any case during normal operation or do harm to the audience or the pa systems have to have highest priority.. than to finish the features sold... and than compatibility to any hack out there...

place 2 and 3 can be interchanged but a finsihed release has fixed all 3 points and dont leaves us with halfready implementations of allready sold features .
Problem is that the ableton user base is so 98% fanboy based..not a singel voice has questioned that grouptracks dont work in arrange..
Ok
with all the crashing you really dont care much about grouptrack..
you just have found out that the fileformat has changed.. what was only anounced by the load window that claimed that you cant load your live 8 created file in a stabel live 7 anymore..
Or cant load clips created in live 7 without stting all clip parameters again..

Sorry... hard to memorize al the steps of disgstment live 8 has cerated during 2009..
But thanks to the fanbase we can live with such things so well that it was repeated with max for live again.. the second time a new file format..absolutly great
.
anyway..time to go to the party. i am late...

a happy new year to everbody except the guys that are only in it for the money...

[H20nly]

^

I hear you on group tracks. They got me back in November. I posted a thread about it. I had an anomaly with volume that made it sound as though the automation I deleted was still there. It wouldn't go away... then when Nico at the Abe Cave offered to have a look at the clip for me I was deleting everything to send it by itself and it started working. Turned out to be group automation... even though I deleted it. It was weird.

Still, it seems like you are angry about Ableton not doing... exactly what they're doing now.
So basically now you're upset that they didn't do it sooner.
You've waited this long... be patient. give em a couple of weeks to see what they can do when they're focused as a group.
You might be pleasantly surprised...

[nowtime]

A crash is considered to have priority over everything, while minor issues like graphics problems get lowest priority. This is the normal routine, which is in place since Live 1. ....Cheers, Robert

Robert, can you say if this is considered a crash? (Not enough memory error message)

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=132470

To me it is a crash. Live8 stops working, I cannot save my set and have to reboot the app.

[deva]

Contrast with propellerhead, whose public beta phases last several months, and result in bug-free proucts being released. A public beta needs 3-4 months in order to realistically sort out the issues that users raise. I hope Ableton learn this point too. Really I just hope that Ableton now get their act together and move on from this sad low point.

Blah blah blah - you dropped Live, so go post your anti-ableton stuff somewhere else...

Oh, and have the props add vst/au support for 3rd party synths and effects and they will have a lot more issues to deal with. A closed system is not a good comparison to a full host.

[headquest]

Contrast with propellerhead, whose public beta phases last several months, and result in bug-free proucts being released. A public beta needs 3-4 months in order to realistically sort out the issues that users raise. I hope Ableton learn this point too. Really I just hope that Ableton now get their act together and move on from this sad low point.

Blah blah blah - you dropped Live, so go post your anti-ableton stuff somewhere else...

Oh, and have the props add vst/au support for 3rd party synths and effects and they will have a lot more issues to deal with. A closed system is not a good comparison to a full host.

Actually I still have Live 7, still use it, and am still watching to see if/when to upgrade to 8, 9 or whatever. I am not anti-Ableton, merely very disappointed in their prior attitude to customers, including their attitude to me when reporting bugs.

If you want to play the fanboy and be rude to people who have had issues with Live, that's your choice, but that attitude is a big part of the problem Ableton have identifed, not part of the solution.

Ableton have decided to take a different and much more positive path of admitting there are problems and that they've got it wrong. I very much hope they follow that through because I do care about Live, about my investment in it, and about the reputation this software has.

[heavensdaw]

Ableton.. the program, the company, the support. In my eyes, ALL rock..
Perfection is a very hard quality to achieve.. But I know that is what the Abes strive for..

Sorry if I sound like a fanboi.. but I can't help, but to admire and support them.

Thanks for your honesty, dedication and inspiration Abes.

Happy 2010 too!

[crumhorn]

I get the impression that recent enhancements to Live - MAX integration, control surface support, and integration of AAS instruments - have required something of a "Drains Up" re-factoring of Live's core. There is bound to be a lot of fall out from that, but in the longer term it will lead to a much more stable and more flexible platform.

You can't get from Live 1 to Live 8 without learning a lot of hard lessons about software architecture and project management along the way. This is just one of those times.

[ikeaboy]

.
anyway..time to go to the party. i am late...

a happy new year to everbody except the guys that are only in it for the money...

Happy new year! I can see why your so annoyed. I hope you had a good night I'm dealing with bugs in my lungs (just a cold) so no party for me. There seems to be a gap in understanding on the forum between users who can get on with their work with Live 8 and those who can't (for legit reasons) thats leading to a lot of what I call 'anti-hugs'.

[deva]

Contrast with propellerhead, whose public beta phases last several months, and result in bug-free proucts being released. A public beta needs 3-4 months in order to realistically sort out the issues that users raise. I hope Ableton learn this point too. Really I just hope that Ableton now get their act together and move on from this sad low point.

Blah blah blah - you dropped Live, so go post your anti-ableton stuff somewhere else...

Oh, and have the props add vst/au support for 3rd party synths and effects and they will have a lot more issues to deal with. A closed system is not a good comparison to a full host.

Actually I still have Live 7, still use it, and am still watching to see if/when to upgrade to 8, 9 or whatever. I am not anti-Ableton, merely very disappointed in their prior attitude to customers, including their attitude to me when reporting bugs.

If you want to play the fanboy and be rude to people who have had issues with Live, that's your choice, but that attitude is a big part of the problem Ableton have identifed, not part of the solution.

Ableton have decided to take a different and much more positive path of admitting there are problems and that they've got it wrong. I very much hope they follow that through because I do care about Live, about my investment in it, and about the reputation this software has.

Oh, I'm not rude to people who have issues with Live, just you cause on here and kvr you have jumped all over this and don't miss any opportunity to twist the knife more and claim your pound of flesh while at the same time pretending to 'care'. Your sanctimonious attitude is nauseating.

[Jarvisimon]

I've just been made aware of Ableton's announcement to suspend development of Live 9 due to bugs still present in Live 8 and their apology to users still experiencing bugs all this time later.

I was one of the main people to speak out against the early release of Live 8 and at the time was slated for suggesting they make a public announcement similar to the one they have now made a year later. I also suggested they release a "bug-fixes in process" list, which I've also see mentioned in this thread so here's another +1 in that direction.

Perhaps my suggestion wasn't such a bad one after all, infact, retrospectively, it was the only one they could have made if they wanted a reliable future in the industry. A Live 9 announcement when Live 8 was still unready would have meant the likelihood of me ditching this software altogether, something I would have done, despite having found Live 7 (i've still not upgraded) to be very stable and a workflow tool beyond comparison.

So well done Ableton, you finally listened and have proven that you are brave enough to stand by your ideals and that you are humble enough to apologise publicly. I wish your team and your remarkable software the very best 2010 and beyond.

[DJ Voyetra]

I think one factor being overlooked is that Ableton did lose several people from the development team, which I'm pretty sure will also have caused one or two problems for Ableton when it came to getting things fixed as quickly as they would like.

Volker Schumacher (Application Developer), Claes Johanson (DSP Specialist), Pablo Sara (Head of Design) and Nicholas Allen all left to form Bitwig, though there hasn't been too much of a noise made about this online as yet, just a few small posts here and there. I'm not sure how much this has contributed to the current issues Ableton are having with Live, though all any of us can do is hope for the best and that we'll soon see a rock solid version of Live appear once again.

[Grappadura]

I want some big fat looppack or some other thing as a make-up for the features I bought but cant use (like share).