How do you use external MIDI sound modules with Live?

[Pasha]

I came across this many times before but didn't share it so...

I have a couple of sound modules I would like to use more because I like
the sounds but I'm somewhat restrained to do so because of the way Live
manages the MIDI control over external gear.
Although clips can send program change there's no way to know the name of the patch you're
selecting except having the reference patch in front of you, code the Bank, Subbank, Program into Live and go. Moreover the external instrument does not help because cannot send program changes but only MIDI Channel information.
I have imagined several ways to do this and I would like you guys with external Sound Modules
to review it and share it if you like:

1) Buy a Librarian (is program change retained?)
2) Create as many clips as you need program changes and name them accordingly (not the whole sound set in one shot but as along as you use sounds)
3) Live in peace and look-up reference on hardware manual and input program change manually into clip
4) any other I missed...

- Thanks in advance for suggesting
- Best
- Pasha

[Pasha]

I can't believe I'm alone on this...

[mikemc]

I do not do this currently, but have been thinking about it, and have had reservations for the reasons you mention.

#2 sounds like it is the most readily available and workable, a pretty good idea I think. You could save the clips into subdirectories named for the device.

[3phase]

i dont understand the problem.. . best is to record the lines you need and maybe store the midi information if you want add other sounds with the same sequence later

There is a good free sysex tool on the elektron web page called c6.
You might dump the content of your sound modules and store it within the live projekt folder for later refference..


and about patch names.. as you ve mentioned you can have clips that are just for sending the programchange and give them the name of the patch...

i only use external soundmodules and its not such a big problem as long you can squeeze some good sounds out of them...


for the maximum "comfort" you want you probably need a more midi related daw..

[UKRuss]

Do you use your modules in a live context then Pash?

I only use mine for composition so, I don't need live to control the midi program changes, I just dial up the patch on the equipment directly and record, select the next patch and record that line and so on. I record the audio and collapse and deactivate the midi channels in the set, just in case i need to go back later.

[Pasha]

Do you use your modules in a live context then Pash?

I only use mine for composition so, I don't need live to control the midi program changes, I just dial up the patch on the equipment directly and record, select the next patch and record that line and so on. I record the audio and collapse and deactivate the midi channels in the set, just in case i need to go back later.

Thanks Russ.
I use it for composition, simply I would like to have the patch names listed as I have them for VSTi like Zebra 2.5 for example.
I used the same workflow that you mentioned but I'm not completely satisfied with that. I want to keep MIDI lines in the MIDI domain
as long as possible, only to render them in audio at the very last moment, maybe using real time rendering and the External Instrument Effect.
This approach fits very well with my analogue mixer (remember?) and let me change my mind about a sound every time I want it just like a preset
for Operator. The downside of it is that having to remember more than 1024 patches feels a little disrupting.
However the 'Trust your ears' approach you suggest is good for when I have to record couple of tracks, but for a full MIDI composition
doesn't fit very well. I'll create the relevant clips with patch names as long as I use some patch so that overtime I'll build a library with almost no effort...

- Cheers
- Pasha

[SubFunk]

Do you use your modules in a live context then Pash?

I only use mine for composition so, I don't need live to control the midi program changes, I just dial up the patch on the equipment directly and record, select the next patch and record that line and so on. I record the audio and collapse and deactivate the midi channels in the set, just in case i need to go back later.

i do it the same way. it works nicely.
i also always keep the recorded midi clips in case i need to go back, or want to adjust the sound on the module itself, etc.

[Pasha]

i dont understand the problem.. . best is to record the lines you need and maybe store the midi information if you want add other sounds with the same sequence later

There is a good free sysex tool on the elektron web page called c6.
You might dump the content of your sound modules and store it within the live projekt folder for later refference..


and about patch names.. as you ve mentioned you can have clips that are just for sending the programchange and give them the name of the patch...

i only use external soundmodules and its not such a big problem as long you can squeeze some good sounds out of them...


for the maximum "comfort" you want you probably need a more midi related daw..

I want to use my MIDI Sound Module as a VSTi like Zebra 2.5. Select a Patch (and remember it in the project and you go)
That's why I would like a kind of Librarian (only Patch select not Patch Editing) functionality in the External Instrument Effect.

Hope this clarifies my need. I will take a look at the software you mentioned.

- Best
- Pasha

[Pasha]

Do you use your modules in a live context then Pash?

I only use mine for composition so, I don't need live to control the midi program changes, I just dial up the patch on the equipment directly and record, select the next patch and record that line and so on. I record the audio and collapse and deactivate the midi channels in the set, just in case i need to go back later.

i do it the same way. it works nicely.
i also always keep the recorded midi clips in case i need to go back, or want to adjust the sound on the module itself, etc.

I see. Thank you. I will adapt.

- Best
- Pasha

[Hertz SM]

I see a MAX (even Synthedit) solution for this though I'm not capable of doing it myself (yet... ) :

A midi plugin that sits in the outgoing midi track and reads preset names from a text list according to the value of cc#32 (0) being send by the user. Assuming you have such a PG change dial on your keyboard and use it for sound search (like most of us do) one would only have to select the right instrument text file (e.g. by a dropdown list) to let the plugin display the right names. Should be easy...

[Chisel]

I see a MAX (even Synthedit) solution for this though I'm not capable of doing it myself (yet... ) :

I actually requested this on KVR awhile back:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

Meanwhile, I gave up on the software solution in Live or using a 3rd party librarian. My elegant solution was to move my rackmount devices on top of my desk (think really expensive monitor stand!) Now I have direct access to program changes straight from the source!

BTW, it's nice to hear how people are using external instruments with Live. I've tried different workflows and my favorite is to record MIDI clips in a set of MIDI tracks that contain External Instruments, then bounce the audio to a set of audio tracks that will be used in Arrangement view. I also tried freezing the External Instrument tracks, but I ran into issues when trying to arrange these frozen tracks - namely not being able to add effects! So I eventually end up having to bounce to dedicated audio tracks regardless. Once everything is bounced, I group the MIDI tracks and collapse/disable them so they don't play with the Arrangement. This workflow seems best because even if I use my sound modules in Multi mode, I only have one stereo pair output going into Live from each device so I need to freeze/bounce/disable one track at a time or I'll hear all instruments playing through all tracks!

Peace \/
chisel316

[Hertz SM]

That's quite interesting, Chisel. Eventually it leads to my (2ct based) conclusion that it doesn't make sense to enforce a comfort that outboard devices have never been designed for. There were only two digits in user interfaces years ago - it's obvious that trying to overcome this will lead to "solutions" that wear out in tricky work-arounds.

[Akshara]

If the sound modules are multi-timbral and allow for saving of "Performances" of up to 16 patches as a single setup, then it is possible to "virtually" change sounds by assigning each sound to a unique midi channel within the external device's performance setup; and then in Live create 16 tracks as a group per device, with each track assigned to its own midi output channel per device, and then change sounds by placing midi clips on the tracks assigned to the desired sounds. This way if there are 4 external devices, one would need to send only 4 program changes and have access to up to 48 sounds simultaneously, controlled by 48 midi tracks within Live.

This is what I do with my Roland XV-5080, to keep it simple and easy to remember, and then just rename the tracks in Live to the names of the patches on the XV. However I rarely need more than 16 sounds per song from it; and when I do, will usually just change the entire Performance or bank of 16 sounds on the external device, duplicate the group in Live, rename the duplicated tracks to the new sounds and add the program change on a clip/scene in the new group.

[Chisel]

If the sound modules are multi-timbral and allow for saving of "Performances" of up to 16 patches as a single setup, then it is possible to "virtually" change sounds by assigning each sound to a unique midi channel within the external device's performance setup; and then in Live create 16 tracks as a group per device, with each track assigned to its own midi output channel per device, and then change sounds by placing midi clips on the tracks assigned to the desired sounds.

I've setup both my XV-5080 and Motif Rack-ES this way before. I created a Live template for an 8-track Motif and 3-track XV-5080 (I used eight and three tracks respectively due to the limitations of assigning patch effects in Multi modes on these devices). Each MIDI track has an External Instrument that corresponds to the channels on the Motif and XV-5080. The problem is when using an External Instrument device, you hear audio on every track. Since I only have one audio pair per device, I end up having to mute all except for the first track of each device. Once I record the first part, I can then freeze that track and unmute the next track. Otherwise, I'd hear the same thing through all of the External Instrument tracks and it would be very loud! I have to admit that lately, I've been using Voice/Patch mode on the devices and recording one part at a time. The only con to this approach is that if I need to tweak a part, I need to recall the patch I used to record it. I usually label the track name the program number of the Voice/Patch so I can recall it quickly.

Peace \/
chisel316

[lord toranaga]

I don't do midi anymore.
I play the module into my DAW, straight audio