grouping audio clips like mid notes? (cubase-like)

[phonographist]

Hello, I'm not actually a Live user, but I'm thinking about it and thats why I'm asking this. I tried version 7, but haven't tried v8 since then.

I'm currently a Cubase user and it has a feature that i really like, and I would like to know if Live has anything similar (it really should, considering the whole idea).
So, in Cubase, if you have done some nice editing of say a sample from a song and cut it up and moved parts around and so on, you can put those audio clips into audio regions (I'm actually not sure of exactly the name here it, could be something other than regions, but anyway...). This means that the audio clips are put into a little box just like the audio would be midi notes. This can ease the way you arrange a song and so on, so you don't have to copy and paste a bunch on separate audio clips on and on, but just one 4-bar loop for example. This also has the (extremely usable) feature that you can "ghost copy" a region, which means that when you change inside one region, you change them all.
What I could see last i checked Live didn't have this feature, it seems to be totally focused on loops when it comes to audio. But maybe there's a really cool way of doing basically the same thing but differently? The basic thing that i want to do is to be able to loop chopped up portions of audio instead of just a couple of bars from something...

The reason I want to check out Live is that it seems faster on a lot of things that i also do, like put drum samples into a sampler and program them it so on. Everything seems really nicely integrated.

[phonographist]

(sorry, but) nobody?

[Angstrom]

Live has nothing like this, but I wish it did.
Not only for arranging, but to drag those group clips to session.

If you search for 'metaclips' you'll see my old threads on the subject.
But there's nothing here, or on the horizon for this.

[ze2be]

I came from years of Cubase use. You lose some futures, but you gain so many more! I never looked back, and I never really missed any of them.

Theres lots of cool things you can do to audio. Consider Session View a real time syncing audio container for all your cuts and edits. You can slice audio to midi. Just right click on an audio clip, chose "slice to midi", and it slices from your warp markers. You can then re-arrange it with midi notes, as a normal midi clip. The slices are automatically chopped into one of the Samplers. Lives File Browser on the left side is brilliant. Drag and drop files both ways, or preview them directly in the File Browser. You can drag effect chains, racks with synths, whole tracks with plugin chains(!), or whole projects into each other.

Lives audio clips behaves as ghosts, until you "consolidate" them.

[leedsquietman]

Ze2be is correct - which is why I use both systems extensively because both systems have pros and cons. Ze2be pointed out some of Live's positives (Session View and Racks in general are huge) - I also prefer warping - warping in Cubase in the sample editor is not as intuitive.

However, I prefer Cubase 5 for some tasks, especially audio editing, mixing (proper dual monitor support, arrangement on one monitor, mixer screens on the second), bezier curves and automation editing with the automation panel, Variaudio pitch correction, Reverence convolution reverb, and while neither Live nor Cubase typically have amazing in the box plugins, Cubase has more FX plugins, some such as Variaudio, Pitch Correct, Cloner and the Amp Simulator are really good. Cubase is also quite a bit less CPU hungry and there have been numerous times I started something in Live and would have been happy to continue except it was putting the computer into meltdown, export midis and render waves to Cubase, with the same vsts and it can handle significantly more load. This is a trade off of Live's amazing drop and drag, do everything on the fly without stopping audio engine. Someone suggested that for studio use, they could look a feature where this was turned off and behaved like Logic/Cubase/Sonar etc to save CPU load in the studio and turn it on for Live performance - I'd also like to see this as it would mean less reliance on Cubase for mixing and heavier sessions.

Live just rules for composition/arrangement of tunes though and I don't think I would ever compose a track in Cubase again, even though I often end up mixing and fine tuning audio/midi with it. If you got both systems you're covered, if you have only one of these systems, you can do a lot but need to find workarounds or lose features. If i could only have one system it would be close, but Live would just edge it.

[ze2be]

A quad core would help out a lot. I used to always peak the CPU in the pre-dual core days. Since I got the quad Q6600 about 2 year ago (?) it have never happened. Though I have got a lot healthier on using CPU eating plugs.
Regarding the Arrangement View (the linear sequencer in Live) ive learnt to live with its limitations. In fact I haven't been using anything else since 2004.

It also depends on how you work. Live has changed the way I work with mixing down tracks. It feels more creative. More like a DJ then a Studio Technician. I find the approach refreshing in regard to the old ways of mixing songs. Metaphorically the old way would be the hardware mixing studio with a huge mixing console and syncing Tape players. While the DJ approach would be a huge DJ mixer with an army of syncing Samplers.

So whats the difference? Well, the first is more precise, while the latter is more creative.
In reality I do end up in the traditional way though. But I don't spend a lot of time on final mixing, because I have developed a lot of working habits which mostly nails the tracks from the start. this have taken years to develop though. The "creative DJ mixing" part happens somewhere between the composing and the final mix.

[infiniteB]

session view is EXACTLY what you want.. you can arrange, organize, copy groups of clips any way you want, as well a flip em live (mutes, solos, stutters, live manipulation of automation, etc...) and have all of that recorded onto the "final" arrangement view...
by far more in depth control than what you described as needing...

great tutorial:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIUEyGG8wO0
make sure to watch the whole thing.. a little monotonous at times, but it will answer your question completely!

[Angstrom]

session view is EXACTLY what you want..

no, no it isn't.
Session is very limited

this is exactly what I want


http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php? ... =metaclips

[squelcht]

+1 meta-clips

[infiniteB]

Actually, you can midi assign a key (keyboard key, knob, slider, computer keyboard key, etc) to any scene (each scene full of a clip or clips or parts of a clip) and quantize (or not) each scenes trigger for when you you hit it in real time...and then, yes, all of this can be recorded onto one clip...
you can easily do what you are asking and more... Live just has a different, and more intricate way of approaching it, giving you way more possibilities... something just as easy once you get it...

[ze2be]

session view is EXACTLY what you want..

no, no it isn't.
Session is very limited

this is exactly what I want


http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php? ... =metaclips

I see. That could open up some new possibilities. I was really into Tracktion (v.1) before Live got Midi (v.4). Jules, the developer, was active on the forum. I tried to get through that a "built in" sampler into the engine, similar to your picture here, would been awesome and very logic. Especially if you could set velocity and standard midi functions to the meta clips. Even more so with Live. We wouldn't have to use a sampler all the time, and the editing view of clips are a lot nicer then the tiny one in Sampler. It might however require merging midi and audio tracks, and that might be very complicated to program. "wrap selected clips to meta sampler" hmm.. This reminds me of Comodore Trackers like Octamed! Every track had kind of a built in hard wired sampler/audio editor combo.

[Angstrom]

Actually, you can midi assign a key (keyboard key, knob, slider, computer keyboard key, etc) to any scene (each scene full of a clip or clips or parts of a clip) and quantize (or not) each scenes trigger for when you you hit it in real time...and then, yes, all of this can be recorded onto one clip...
you can easily do what you are asking and more... Live just has a different, and more intricate way of approaching it, giving you way more possibilities... something just as easy once you get it...

Just as easy?

Ok here's a use-case
user slices up two 1 bar breaks into hits and uses those to make an 8 bar section, where different warps and pitch are used along with automation of effects. In total there are 80 different slices making up 8 bars.

My proposal: simply drag that edit into a session clip slot. As seen in the image above. A quick one action move.

your suggestion: set up a midi loopback device to create an OS and computer specific midi routing, drop the 80 clips into session (forming a massive column of clips). Now create a new midi track routed to hubiloop, set lives preferences to receive from hubiloop, assign notes to each of 80 clips through the loopback. Now record that same pattern that you already had going again but as midi.
Realise that you can no longer use midi keys as Lives assign sytem has stolen them

yes, I do know this program
yes, I know the workarounds
yes, I know the pitfalls

if you want 80 vertical clips in one session track to represent just 8 bars of one track then go for it but please, check my thread first before you put your foot in your mouth

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php? ... =metaclips

[infiniteB]

Actually, you can midi assign a key (keyboard key, knob, slider, computer keyboard key, etc) to any scene (each scene full of a clip or clips or parts of a clip) and quantize (or not) each scenes trigger for when you you hit it in real time...and then, yes, all of this can be recorded onto one clip...
you can easily do what you are asking and more... Live just has a different, and more intricate way of approaching it, giving you way more possibilities... something just as easy once you get it...

Just as easy?

Ok here's a use-case
user slices up two 1 bar breaks into hits and uses those to make an 8 bar section, where different warps and pitch are used along with automation of effects. In total there are 80 different slices making up 8 bars.

My proposal: simply drag that edit into a session clip slot. As seen in the image above. A quick one action move.

your suggestion: set up a midi loopback device to create an OS and computer specific midi routing, drop the 80 clips into session (forming a massive column of clips). Now create a new midi track routed to hubiloop, set lives preferences to receive from hubiloop, assign notes to each of 80 clips through the loopback. Now record that same pattern that you already had going again but as midi.
Realise that you can no longer use midi keys as Lives assign sytem has stolen them

yes, I do know this program
yes, I know the workarounds
yes, I know the pitfalls

if you want 80 vertical clips in one session track to represent just 8 bars of one track then go for it but please, check my thread first before you put your foot in your mouth

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php? ... =metaclips

jeez. my left one.
foot in my mouth? I was offering help. If i was wrong or not fully knowledgable, well then, my left one. You obviously have issues if you even need to say I put my foot in my mouth. Okay Einsten?

[Angstrom]

Erm, no I'm not.
Not one question from me in this thread

[phonographist]

Yeah, meta-clips, exacly what i want. I don't think session view is exacly what i need, at all really... It seems pretty stupid that Live doesn't have anything like this. I mean your'e supposed to create grooves of and build with them, it's weird that it's not possible with audio, just midi....