Recording & comping multiple takes (ala Pro Tools playlists)

[huzzam]

Hi y'all--

I come from a Pro Tools background, and am very used to the playlists feature. In short, if you have all your other tracks set to go, you can record your next part multiple times in multiple playlists, and switch between them to see which you like better, and then copy & paste them together into a comp track of all the best bits. This way, you have your plug-ins just on the one track, saving processor power, and you don't have 12 different tracks of the same thing to mute/unmute just to hear what you're working with when comping. You can go back any time, if you notice something you don't like, and grab it from one of the other takes.

I know Logic (& most DAWs) has the same capability, but I can't figure out how to do a similar thing in Live (I have Suite . The closest I've come is to create a group of tracks, and put the plugins on the group. Each take goes on a separate track. But it's really awkward for comping, with all the muting/unmuting, and you're left with all these tracks sitting around, unless you delete them all (which prevents you from fixing things later if you notice something after your initial comp).

Does anyone use Live as a DAW in this way, and have suggestions for how to get a good multi-take workflow going? Or is this really the best way to do it in Live?

Thanks
Peter in Oakland

[anybody human]

I don't know if any program handles comping as well as Pro Tools8 playlists, especially the new loop record straight to playlist. Comping tracks is my #1 wish for Live 9 and is Pro Tools best feature by far IMO.

In Live, I would just use clips in session view for the takes, then use the loop brace to cut clips to size. Take the loop function off when you copy them to the arrangement page, they'll have fades w/o loop being on. Maybe arrange sections (verse/chorus) in your group setup if you want to break it down further. It's not going to be near as fast but it would work. Just an idea.

Edit: In your group setup, do you copy a bunch of clips to the arrangement page so you can see them all? This would make it easier to cut/size/drag/paste onto a final comped track-option drag to keep original. Maybe this is what you're doing already.

[huzzam]

Thanks for your reply AH...

I don't know if any program handles comping as well as Pro Tools8 playlists, especially the new loop record straight to playlist. Comping tracks is my #1 wish for Live 9 and is Pro Tools best feature by far IMO.

I agree, they really nailed it in PT8. Kinda stole Logic's idea & improved it, but who's counting;)

In Live, I would just use clips in session view for the takes, then use the loop brace to cut clips to size. Take the loop function off when you copy them to the arrangement page, they'll have fades w/o loop being on. Maybe arrange sections (verse/chorus) in your group setup if you want to break it down further. It's not going to be near as fast but it would work. Just an idea.

That's a good idea, I'll try that next time.

Edit: In your group setup, do you copy a bunch of clips to the arrangement page so you can see them all? This would make it easier to cut/size/drag/paste onto a final comped track-option drag to keep original. Maybe this is what you're doing already.

I've just been recording each take to a different track in arrangement view, and group all these tracks. Sends & inserts are all on the group. All the takes are then visible at once on the different tracks, and you can audition the takes by juggling the Mute buttons. Copy & paste the bits you like into yet another track (also in the group) & then mute all the takes so only the comp is unmuted. It's ok, but unwieldy.

Anyone have other great workflows for this kind of thing?

I suspect this weakness remains since most folks don't seem to use Live as a regular DAW for multitrack recording, but rather as a clip launching live performance tool... Or am I wrong about that? Until crossfades appeared, I never considered using Live for real recording. But now, rather than lug around my whole PT rig, I'd love to use Live + my Apogee Duet for mobile recording.

Thanks
~peter in oakland

[anybody human]

No I think more and more people are using it as a regular DAW. It still lacks this one crucial aspect of comping tracks for me. This gets into philosophy and long term strategic vision though. Does Ableton want to compete with "real DAW's", or become more of what it is already, unique. Or can you do both? It's a big question but I'm with them either way. Using Live as a compositional canvass and sound design enviornment are the big things for me, more than performance, but it rules all three areas IMO. One thing you could do with your Apogee Duet is track in Live and mix down in Protools/Logic/Cubase or whatever you're comfortable with. Wouldn't have PT8 loop rec. playlists but u could easily record vocal takes as clips, export tracks, then import them into PT and make a playlist. Just a thought.

[huzzam]

I agree, Live is great as a compositional tool -- I love mocking up tunes in no time with all the included instruments. And it has the sense of everything being at your fingertips more than PT does. I still struggle with just putting down a basic drum track in PT, whereas I can do it in 60 seconds in Live... It's just the audio tracking workflow that seems lacking in Live, but I guess I'll just have to try getting used to it.

For mixing etc I definitely still pull stuff into PT, mainly because I love my McDSP plugins which are still RTAS only. But in April or May they'll have AU versions out, can't wait!

Oh & I also really like the sound of the X-Form Elastic Audio in PT, I think it blows Live's warping away... Runs slow, but it's worth the wait if you're gonna be committing it to a CD!

thanks
peter

[leedsquietman]

Better comping is something which would benefit Live.

BTW, Cubase, DP, Sonar and Logic (esp since v8) all have extensive comping features similar to PT.

I think that audio editing as a whole is a weakness in Live, which is why I tend to use other products for those purposes, but as the product grows it is adding new features and gaining more of the common features. Pro Tools has been around since 1991 after all and specifically designed as an audio recording medium, one reason why it's MIDI functionality was not as good as other DAWS until very recently.

As for stretching - play with parameters. PT7 and 8 use the Elastique Pro algorithm, which is exactly the same as complex pro mode in Live 8.

Live is it's own animal. Not everyone is in favour of making it into a linear DAW a la Protools/Logic/Sonar/Cubase/DP etc. I also think it's fair to say that a lot of Live users aren't typically recording lots of vocal intensive tracks (or guitar intensive tracks) as frequently as other DAWS so fewer people really feel a NEED to have PT style comping and if you haven't been exposed to it, you don't know what you're missing.

[huzzam]

BTW, Cubase, DP, Sonar and Logic (esp since v8) all have extensive comping features similar to PT.

Yep I think Logic 8's comping was fantastic, and I think that's where PT got their ideas

As for stretching - play with parameters. PT7 and 8 use the Elastique Pro algorithm, which is exactly the same as complex pro mode in Live 8.

Hmm, really? I'm pretty sure that PT8's X-Form Elastic Audio algo is a Digi proprietary thing, and it's the one I think sounds great. To me, Live's "Complex Pro" seems comparable to PT's "Polyphonic" mode.

Live is it's own animal. Not everyone is in favour of making it into a linear DAW a la Protools/Logic/Sonar/Cubase/DP etc. I also think it's fair to say that a lot of Live users aren't typically recording lots of vocal intensive tracks (or guitar intensive tracks) as frequently as other DAWS so fewer people really feel a NEED to have PT style comping and if you haven't been exposed to it, you don't know what you're missing.

Sure, I get that. But there *is*, after all, the Arrangement View, which is a linear DAW, and it feels really close to what I need, but not quite there. Plus it seems like Ableton *is* thinking about features that make a professional DAW, vis the addition of crossfades for example. Obviously every program is going to have its strengths; I'm just trying to figure out if *I* can do what *I* want in Live without going nuts. So far I depend on Live (for most synth/sampled parts, especially drums) rewired into Pro Tools (for audio + mixing), but that's obviously less efficient & less flexible, and keeps me tied to Digi hardware.

I'd *love* to travel *without* my Mbox 2 Pro & Aphex preamp, and *with* my Apogee Duet

thanks
peter in oakland

[madlab]

To me, that's also the main missing feature in Live. Already wrote it in a thread elsewhere.

[UKRuss]

I agree with all the above but here's my workaround for a lead vocal multi take and comping session.

1) Set up ten audio tracks (or however many you want) in arrangement view.
2) Label them Vox 1, Vox 2 , Vox 3 , Vox 4 and so on.
2) Group the tracks and label it 'Main Vox'
3) Set up your chain of vocal mix FX on the group track.
4) Arm Vox 1 and record your take.
5) Disarm vox 1 and switch off the speaker.
6) arm Vox 2 and record your take
7) Repeat step 4 to 6 for all remaining take tracks
8 )Comp them by riding faders or automation of each track to a new audio track via the group FX (or without) and then add FX to the new comp'd track if required.

works for me.

[leedsquietman]

I think that method works for most people. A bit easier in Live 8 with it's easy track grouping but achievable in 7 and below by just arming a seperate audio track and routing tracks through it. Typically I would only employ a reverb on a send while doing the comping and then do any remaining processing after. If your computer is on the slower side it's a bit more problematic though, having several armed tracks and routing going on means you can't freeze any of those tracks, but unless it's an intense project it should still be manageable.

I think some of us, especially those who have worked in studios before, get a bit too hung up on overly editing / comping tracks together - I mean, I did sessions even on analogue tape where we had to mess about splicing several takes together at a word level (that was a major PITA and I still bear the razor marks on my right hand from a bit of over zealous use of a blade on 2" tape), and digital editing allows you to take it to the SYLLABLE level, and some people really do comp syllables together. I'm more of the school of thought that if I have to comp syllables, the takes all have to be redone. If a singer can't give me at least 3 or 4 consecutive words in tune or sang to a decent level, then fire the singer !!! You'd be surprised at how much comping has an influence on music as a whole - Jimmy Page was someone who pioneered it with guitar solos, apparently the solo in Heartbreaker is spliced together from over 20 takes and that was from 1970, and the solo for Stairway To Heaven was also taken from 3 or 4 different recordings.

[huzzam]

I agree with all the above but here's my workaround for a lead vocal multi take and comping session.
...
8 )Comp them by riding faders or automation of each track to a new audio track via the group FX (or without) and then add FX to the new comp'd track if required.

Thanks Russ, that's basically what I've been doing, except in step 8 I make the comp on a new track by copying & pasting, rather than automation/faders...

~peter

[huzzam]

Jimmy Page was someone who pioneered [comping] with guitar solos, apparently the solo in Heartbreaker is spliced together from over 20 takes...

wow, 20 takes for a 45 second solo! (Yes I just timed it ) Proud to say I've never broken five or so in one comp...

I hear you about the over-reliance on comping. I definitely prefer to keep a single take intact if possible. Then again, even if you're not going to comp anything, it's nice to be able to do multiple takes & choose among them, which still requires some kind of setup like we're discussing here.

~p

[starving student]

arrangement view set loop brackets to how ever many bars you want
set punch in time to loop start time, and leave punch out time alone (no punch out)
then just arm the track and press record, keep working the part until you're sure you've got some good takes and drag out the track until all your parts are visible on the timeline and then just move the loop bracket to each section you want to audition. not elegant but neither is walking on sunshine

[kiddid]

very late on this thread but i too would love it if Live made it easier to record/comp takes...i'm wondering if this question has been actively directed to the folks at Ableton?

[ilia]

+1