I've read a post or two on the forums that seem similar to my problem, but no real answers... So, I'm enquiring here.
Frankly, I'm almost done with Live because of this rhythmic glitch I hear in most of my tracks...
I need some clarifications, and some questions answered... because at this point, other than a fun toy, Live isn't working well for me... and at the price I paid, really isn't an acceptable situation...
It seems that when auditioning samples, or loading a sample into a track, that Live slices it up (ala ReCycle?), and then uses the slices to cleanly time-stretch... (?) I say it seems so, but I don't know it for fact...
I do know that Live 'warps' samples, even when auditioning, to match the current bpm settings. So, I've done some experiments where I've taken a set of various samples (both stock and self-made as part of the test), recorded @ 100bpm, and set Live to 100bpm for the Set... so there should be minimal warping, right?
Still, when I preview or load my samples (which in any other software I use, Reason, ReCycle, Peak, or Cubase, playback cleanly & perfectly) I get a rhythmic stuttering, or fluttering effect in the loop. The worst affected sample types include:
- bass lines
- vocals
- backing drones
- strings
- most anything that doesn't have a heavily rhythmic character
When all the samples are playing back together, Live ends up adding an overall rythmic nuance that I don't want in there... in fact, sometimes the 'noise' is very prominent & irritating, and the samples sound 'twisted' in a way that's wholly unintended or desirable...
Basically, it sounds like the sample was sliced, and the slices aren't being re-assembled quite right... like they're being moshed together a bit, with nice crossfading between slices, so you don't get clicks... instead you get a "pulsing" rhythm added... does this make any damned sense? Anyone who's experienced it must know what I'm referring to anyway...
I've tried using shorter loops (as suggested by another post) and I know about adjusting the Transients setting to get smoother playback, but these only marginally help. Adjusting transients sometimes screws with the timing integrity of the sample (some samples contain a subtle rhythmic component, such as swells in string arrangements. When I adjust the Transient setting, the loop doesn't seem to be "re-analyzed" from scratch, and the default setting of 1/16th can't be adjusted...).
Most of the samples just sound like hell... if I solo a track, it sounds warbly and sad, with the audio quality noticeably degraded...
This can't be right!?
Also, I note that the speed of the stutter appears to match the Transient setting, although it's not always easy to claim that with certainty.
Main thing #1: Is there a workaround for this problem???
Main thing #2: Is it fixed in version 2.0?
Unfortunately I bought Live a week or so before the official 2.0 announcement, so I don't get a free upgrade... and I'm not willing to spend yet more on Live if the same problem exists in 2.0...
My system is a Mac G4 867Mhz Quicksilver, running OS9.2.2 & OS X 10.2.3 (seperate partitions), 1.5Gb Ram...
- Tascam US-428 audio/midi interface
- evolution mk-249cII controller (via midi, not usb)
As I said, my system runs all the other previously mentioned apps flawlessly... I'm optimized for audio on this system... I use Live in both 9 & X, with the same results...
Thanks,
robinson
Live 1.5.2 Fluttering sounds... slice hiccups?
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tribalogical
- Posts: 318
- Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2003 7:26 pm
- Location: boise, idaho
Dear Robinson,
a lot of the work on Live 2 went into the time-warping engine. I suggest these steps:
1) Download the Live 2 demo;
2) See if the problem persists with the new warping modes and settings;
3) Tell us about the results.
I'd also encourage you to read in the "Topics" section of the Live 2 manual (which comes with the demo), the section on setting Clip properties to understand the concept of Warp Markers, which is not to be confused with transient markers.
Thank you
Gerhard / ableton
a lot of the work on Live 2 went into the time-warping engine. I suggest these steps:
1) Download the Live 2 demo;
2) See if the problem persists with the new warping modes and settings;
3) Tell us about the results.
I'd also encourage you to read in the "Topics" section of the Live 2 manual (which comes with the demo), the section on setting Clip properties to understand the concept of Warp Markers, which is not to be confused with transient markers.
Thank you
Gerhard / ableton
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dirtystudios
- Posts: 1196
- Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:28 am
if the clip is 100 bpm, and live is set at 100 bpm, then there should be no stretching and therefore no artifacts. it also shouldn't make any audible difference what the transient settings are at if a sample time and the session time are matched.
this might be whats happening:
some sequencers, when rendering audio to files, render a tiny amount of extra audio at the end of a specified length, especially ones that render using a 'quicker-than-realtime' method, and some others don't quite render the whole specified time. If this is whats happening, then you'd definately get those artifacts when pre-listening. The best way to check and see if this is happening is to load a clip into live and check the clip parameter view. the original clip tempo should be exactly 100 bpm if you rendered it at 100 bpm. if it says something like 99.97 or 100.24 then this is what's happening. live plays the clip back compensating for the extra/misiing little bit, and you get nappy sounding loops. try futzing with your sequencer of choice to get loops that are rendered correctly.
if this isn't what's happening then i'm stumped. you might try loading a clip into live, removing the warp marker at the end of the clip and then adjusting the clip's original tempo to match live's. this should remove all artifacts, so if it doesn't then you have a bigger problem upon which i cannot speculate.
hope that helps,
k
p.s. make sure that live is under it's own sync and not an external device. this (theoreticaly, i've no idea at this point) might cause very slight timimg differences if the external source isn't spot on, which might cause live to try and fix the clip to match a tempo that wasn't quite right. who knows?
this might be whats happening:
some sequencers, when rendering audio to files, render a tiny amount of extra audio at the end of a specified length, especially ones that render using a 'quicker-than-realtime' method, and some others don't quite render the whole specified time. If this is whats happening, then you'd definately get those artifacts when pre-listening. The best way to check and see if this is happening is to load a clip into live and check the clip parameter view. the original clip tempo should be exactly 100 bpm if you rendered it at 100 bpm. if it says something like 99.97 or 100.24 then this is what's happening. live plays the clip back compensating for the extra/misiing little bit, and you get nappy sounding loops. try futzing with your sequencer of choice to get loops that are rendered correctly.
if this isn't what's happening then i'm stumped. you might try loading a clip into live, removing the warp marker at the end of the clip and then adjusting the clip's original tempo to match live's. this should remove all artifacts, so if it doesn't then you have a bigger problem upon which i cannot speculate.
hope that helps,
k
p.s. make sure that live is under it's own sync and not an external device. this (theoreticaly, i've no idea at this point) might cause very slight timimg differences if the external source isn't spot on, which might cause live to try and fix the clip to match a tempo that wasn't quite right. who knows?
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tribalogical
- Posts: 318
- Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2003 7:26 pm
- Location: boise, idaho
you make the forum meaningful! :)
Thanks to both for the in-depth replies.
I have two quick things I should point out: One, I'm a native English-speaker living in Japan, and due to distribution quirks have yet to receive my English manual (after three months! Tsk...)... I'm really winging it whenever I can't interpret the Japanese manual it came with... so apologies in advance if some of my issues are too obvious.
Two, I was moving homes not long after purchasing Live, and didn't really have a chance to really delve in, until fairly recently... so, although not new to digital audio, I'm still something of a Live-newbie... so again, please forgive any rampant ignorance on my part...
OK, I spent some hours learning more by doing... I was in fact (and in great part due to the advice given here) able to improve the overall quality of the playback...
LOTS of tweaking, nudging and experimenting to get it all happeneing, but a very noticeable improvement overall...
dirtystudios, you were right about the added data , at least on two loops I was working with. Further exploring showed that small differences in recorded bpm to Live's bpm (ie Live is set to 100bpm, the sample recorded at 105 bpm) needed a bit extra attention to prevent "bad" warping...
Note I am specifically talking about samples that have no strong rhythmic component... ie vocal drones, long chorale notes (ala Russian Monk choirs), string pads and the like. I suspect these are the most demanding to all concerned...
I obviously have to delve deeper into the warp markers as a concept... I really NEED my English manual now...
The distributor here keeps telling my retailer "soon, soon"... it's so frustrating...
OK, I spent an hour or so at the local music labo messing about with Live 2.0 (I brought a few self-contained sets to try on it) and there is a DEFINITE improvement on sound quality in every way... all the samples are noticeably cleaner, and don't seem to lose as much of the depth...
The store still had 1.5.2 setup as well, and sure enough, my sets sounded just like at home on their system...
Looks like 2.0 is the answer...
I love the new features, miss a few that were prominently missing, but the sound is the thing... and it definitely improved!
Now, I have to wait for the 2.0 update to become available here... *sigh*...
Thanks again for the help, it really worked.
robinson
I have two quick things I should point out: One, I'm a native English-speaker living in Japan, and due to distribution quirks have yet to receive my English manual (after three months! Tsk...)... I'm really winging it whenever I can't interpret the Japanese manual it came with... so apologies in advance if some of my issues are too obvious.
Two, I was moving homes not long after purchasing Live, and didn't really have a chance to really delve in, until fairly recently... so, although not new to digital audio, I'm still something of a Live-newbie... so again, please forgive any rampant ignorance on my part...
OK, I spent some hours learning more by doing... I was in fact (and in great part due to the advice given here) able to improve the overall quality of the playback...
LOTS of tweaking, nudging and experimenting to get it all happeneing, but a very noticeable improvement overall...
dirtystudios, you were right about the added data , at least on two loops I was working with. Further exploring showed that small differences in recorded bpm to Live's bpm (ie Live is set to 100bpm, the sample recorded at 105 bpm) needed a bit extra attention to prevent "bad" warping...
Note I am specifically talking about samples that have no strong rhythmic component... ie vocal drones, long chorale notes (ala Russian Monk choirs), string pads and the like. I suspect these are the most demanding to all concerned...
I obviously have to delve deeper into the warp markers as a concept... I really NEED my English manual now...
The distributor here keeps telling my retailer "soon, soon"... it's so frustrating...
OK, I spent an hour or so at the local music labo messing about with Live 2.0 (I brought a few self-contained sets to try on it) and there is a DEFINITE improvement on sound quality in every way... all the samples are noticeably cleaner, and don't seem to lose as much of the depth...
The store still had 1.5.2 setup as well, and sure enough, my sets sounded just like at home on their system...
Looks like 2.0 is the answer...
I love the new features, miss a few that were prominently missing, but the sound is the thing... and it definitely improved!
Now, I have to wait for the 2.0 update to become available here... *sigh*...
Thanks again for the help, it really worked.
robinson
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muthafunka
- Posts: 2251
- Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2003 5:28 pm
- Location: Tokyo
Robinson, following me around the block or what?
You said you're thinking of getting the new version? Why wait? If you don't qualify for a free one, you could get a 1.5 very cheap by checking audiomidi.com and http://www.audiomidi.com/common/cfm/pro ... ct_ID=3340 and download/use the demo 2.1 until you get serial #s etc. (Sell your 1.5J on Yahoo?) Ableton have said on this forum that they'll provide $20 2.0 manuals for 'net upgraders so you won't be hanging around waiting for an 'Eigo-ban' manual to hit these shores either.
nik
You said you're thinking of getting the new version? Why wait? If you don't qualify for a free one, you could get a 1.5 very cheap by checking audiomidi.com and http://www.audiomidi.com/common/cfm/pro ... ct_ID=3340 and download/use the demo 2.1 until you get serial #s etc. (Sell your 1.5J on Yahoo?) Ableton have said on this forum that they'll provide $20 2.0 manuals for 'net upgraders so you won't be hanging around waiting for an 'Eigo-ban' manual to hit these shores either.
nik
Robinson,
you can purchase the Live 2 update online at www.ableton.com. It is available only online, not via retailers. The upgrade downloads includes a html manual; in addition, you can choose a boxes version with a printed version of the new Live 2 manual.
Best,
Gerhard / ableton
you can purchase the Live 2 update online at www.ableton.com. It is available only online, not via retailers. The upgrade downloads includes a html manual; in addition, you can choose a boxes version with a printed version of the new Live 2 manual.
Best,
Gerhard / ableton
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tribalogical
- Posts: 318
- Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2003 7:26 pm
- Location: boise, idaho
hey nik,
yeah, I seem to run into you everywhere out here...! :)
well, I bought Live 1.5 sometime around October (I'm guessing... don't remember exactly). Unfortunately, I didn't get much opportunity to dive into it until the holidays... and then found it only marginally useable...
They warned me over at Key when I bought it that 2.0 was being announced soon... that happened a week or so later... they thought then they could get me the expected free upgrade, but it seems not to be the case now I guess... so my decision is whether to spend the $69 (or $89) to upgrade...
Thanks for the tip re: audiomidi... they're still listed @ $239 though ($199 after rebate)... it's a great price for new buyers, and the 2.0 upddate is free.
I don't want to buy 1.5 twice though...!
It looks like I'm going to have to drop the $$ for the upgrade (I guess $69 isn't much for the difference the new version makes...)
Gerhard,
Thanks for the update info. It looks likely I will update online... I know the 2.0 release is still a bit buggy (according to all I speak with), but it's well worth it to me for the audio difference alone. Good job on getting that warping quality sorted!
By the way, you WILL ship to Japan, right? Hope it doesn't cost more than the update! :)
robinson
yeah, I seem to run into you everywhere out here...! :)
well, I bought Live 1.5 sometime around October (I'm guessing... don't remember exactly). Unfortunately, I didn't get much opportunity to dive into it until the holidays... and then found it only marginally useable...
They warned me over at Key when I bought it that 2.0 was being announced soon... that happened a week or so later... they thought then they could get me the expected free upgrade, but it seems not to be the case now I guess... so my decision is whether to spend the $69 (or $89) to upgrade...
Thanks for the tip re: audiomidi... they're still listed @ $239 though ($199 after rebate)... it's a great price for new buyers, and the 2.0 upddate is free.
I don't want to buy 1.5 twice though...!
It looks like I'm going to have to drop the $$ for the upgrade (I guess $69 isn't much for the difference the new version makes...)
Gerhard,
Thanks for the update info. It looks likely I will update online... I know the 2.0 release is still a bit buggy (according to all I speak with), but it's well worth it to me for the audio difference alone. Good job on getting that warping quality sorted!
By the way, you WILL ship to Japan, right? Hope it doesn't cost more than the update! :)
robinson
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tribalogical
- Posts: 318
- Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2003 7:26 pm
- Location: boise, idaho
updated... :)
ok, I dropped the $89 for the boxed upgrade package...
have so far downloaded & installed 2.01 to my OS X partition, and all seems well... I'm still getting strange artifacts in my choir samples (specificall russian monks, big, boomy, low drones) using default settings... but, I haven't done much at all yet with the new features... it looks like the new flexibility offered with the warp/don't warp, enhanced (?) warp markers, transient settings, etc. can fix me up though.
It would be nice if we could have a good FAQ on how to get best results for non-rhythmic samples... (hint hint)
There are so many variables now... I'd hate to have to spend too much time tweaking those all the time...
Perhaps you could allow for the user to set their own defaults on some of those various settings? (ie transients, warp on/off, etc.)
thansk again for all...
robinson
have so far downloaded & installed 2.01 to my OS X partition, and all seems well... I'm still getting strange artifacts in my choir samples (specificall russian monks, big, boomy, low drones) using default settings... but, I haven't done much at all yet with the new features... it looks like the new flexibility offered with the warp/don't warp, enhanced (?) warp markers, transient settings, etc. can fix me up though.
It would be nice if we could have a good FAQ on how to get best results for non-rhythmic samples... (hint hint)
There are so many variables now... I'd hate to have to spend too much time tweaking those all the time...
Perhaps you could allow for the user to set their own defaults on some of those various settings? (ie transients, warp on/off, etc.)
thansk again for all...
robinson