When is a Live DJ Set too big?

[Loopscious]

I have been working on a DJ set for the past 4 months. It's got hundreds of tracks, each of which is organized with the main track, and then 6-8 duplicates (on average) with the start points moved in (verse 1, chorus, hook, etc.) and also some loops from within the track. Basically I am trying to achieve what one would with Traktor or other programs, where you can lay down multiple start points within a song.

I have about 2,000 scenes and 3 crate channels - note that not all of them contain tracks. Here's what it looks like:



The colored clips on top are dummy clips (blank) used mainly for making notes.

I plan to route each of the channels 1,3,5 to crossfade A - and I plan to duplicate all of the clips on channels 1,3,5 to channels 2,4,6. This will enable me to cross fade and jump around between sections of songs, and and not worry about physically moving the clips or switching the A/B down below.

I'm up to about 2,000 scenes and note that all the music is in WAV format - no MP3s. The "export all and save" folder is 18GB.

I'm running this on an MBP15 with 4GB RAM and a 500GB drive (on Mac 10.5, not snow leapard). I've boosted the latency to 1024 samples.

I'm finding this set to
1. take forever to load, it still wants to open samples, buffer them as if it's decoding them (which it shouldn't right?)
2. not be smooth when launching new clips when I have a lot going on already - like there's a slight pause -- not that it breaks time, but it isn't fluid

I am afraid to dup the channels 1,3,5 to 2,4,5 for fear that this thing might blow up!

Next I tried to open the set on my MBP13 running snow leapard. It's got out of the box specs, 2GB RAM, a 120GB drive (well, there's 60GB free). I copied the 18GB folder onto this machine and it couldn't even open the set, saying there wasn't enough memory. What would it need the memory for? It's not loading that much into RAM and since it's WAV files, why would it need additional drive space?

So my questions are
1. When is a set just too big?
2. Aside from removing music, scaling back, is there anything I can do to make this smoother?
3. Is the answer more RAM (on either MBP15 or 13)?
4. In general, how does one optimize a large set?
5. Is there a way to understand if it's still decoding the WAV files?

Thanks all and happy holidays!

Best,

Loopscious

[HeadrickProductions]

jst posted something else about this. I do not think that we should have to scale down our sets. I would say get a faster machine. I know that everyone swears by mac, but when running suhc large sets it is similar to playing games on a computer. You need to max out with 8 gb of ram, it will help be able to do many things at once. I know that it is a hassle to drop the change on a new laptop, but to really push music we gotta have the power.

Question, do you have the smae latency problems and crashes that I do when I am really trying to get creative?

[Loopscious]

the recent upgrade to 8.1.1 eliminated the crash. i also added 8GB of ram to my machine, which of course helps.. Abelton can only use up to 4GB, but I'd love to see that number rise in the future. Thus far the set seems stable, let's see how it goes!

[ixmxm]

I have a question related to this post, not to steal the thread but to clarify:

When one imports a song into Ableton's session view, does the Ableton set actually hold the song file within it? or does it just hold information about the mp3 file and pull it from the computer harddrive? I know ableton creates its own file for the mp3 when you import it but I'm unsure of what it's for. So I guess my question is: If I import "housetrack.mp3" into session view, and then duplicate it a few times to have some loops or various starting points set up, is the Ableton set file actually holding duplicate mp3 files in it? or is it just duplicate waveform information?

I saw deadmau5's interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v2kJwxobXo) where he shows his Ableton session view and he has a Huge amount of full tracks lined up as well as various clips, dummy clips, effects, and everything in what looks like one set that he uses live. So again, how many songs are too many songs for a standard Macbook Pro? My macbook is one model year old (like his in the interview) with snow leopard and Ableton 8, but I bought it right before the new ones came out.

[yur2die4]

First it renders the mp3 into a wav if it is not already stored in the temp folder.

Then it is treated as a wav.

Ableton Live is non-destructive. It makes a reference file with a wav and then uses that for various data.

All your copies of loops and stuff, starting points, whatever are referenced to that wav UNLESS you use a Consolidation type feature which re-renders it into its own wav.

[ixmxm]

So if I import my entire library (lets say 50 songs to make it easy) it creates 50 wav files, thus doubling the amount of space my music takes up on my hard drive?

[yur2die4]

Yes. Wav is just a lot more stable and consistent than MP3.

I originally stored all my stuff as wav.. then i figured i'd try mp3, and i got annoyed with the idea so now i am resorting back to wav haha.

Sometimes it might not convert all the mp3 files in advance. Do you get a lot of clips that seem like they are 'rendering' when you open your set?

[ixmxm]

I'm only familiar with producing music with the Arrangement view. Session mode and DJing with it are still new to me so I dont have any big sets saved yet. Whenever I import an mp3 to a slot in session view, it just renders the waveform then I warp it to the correct BPM.

[snakedogman]

Yes. Wav is just a lot more stable and consistent than MP3.

I originally stored all my stuff as wav.. then i figured i'd try mp3, and i got annoyed with the idea so now i am resorting back to wav haha.

Sometimes it might not convert all the mp3 files in advance. Do you get a lot of clips that seem like they are 'rendering' when you open your set?

well there shouldn't be any difference between working with wav or mp3, because in reality you are never "working with mp3", since live decodes it into wav before doing anything else.
So even if you're using mp3's, you're still actually working with wav's (from the decoding cache) in Live.

[yur2die4]

I intended to say that the reason Why they render it to wav, is because of it being more stable (and predictable) than mp3

Also, you still are taking a gamble with mp3. If you were to use a flash or external HD, you do not always get the convenience of your pre-warped/saved markers sticking with the track.

[Tarekith]

When it's bigger than a bread box.

[concept_control]

I'd say when it's big enough to make your computer unstable. Simply, a massive DJ set is no good if your PC is going to crap out on you and make you look like a ninny.

Or, come to think of it, if it becomes so big it's a pain to use intuitively.

[benjamingordon]

So if im right... whats the point in getting 8GB RAM if Live can only use up to 4GB?

[ADDJ]

I can't speak for mac users, but i have four gig RAM and even with a gazillion (slight exaggeration) VSTs running, automation mania and with Reason 4 running I have never had Live's CPU load break 50%.

One thing I have read repeatedly is to have all your plugins and audio files (in your case, your songs)on an external drive because (don't ask me the details!) your computer can find/reference them faster and it lightens the load on your main drive which your software is running from.

Bear in mind a 1TB external drive won't set you back more than about £70 (English user here) its definitely a worthy investment.

Also consider that when playing gigs, if your setup goes then it means all your sets and data are still accessible and you can try and borrow another guys lappy just to open it (which is why you should always have a disc with a demo version of ableton on it- quick to install and you can still open your sets).

Hope this helps a little.

[silveriofunk]

I have been working on a DJ set for the past 4 months. It's got hundreds of tracks, each of which is organized with the main track, and then 6-8 duplicates (on average) with the start points moved in (verse 1, chorus, hook, etc.) and also some loops from within the track. Basically I am trying to achieve what one would with Traktor or other programs, where you can lay down multiple start points within a song.

I have about 2,000 scenes and 3 crate channels - note that not all of them contain tracks. Here's what it looks like:



The colored clips on top are dummy clips (blank) used mainly for making notes.

I plan to route each of the channels 1,3,5 to crossfade A - and I plan to duplicate all of the clips on channels 1,3,5 to channels 2,4,6. This will enable me to cross fade and jump around between sections of songs, and and not worry about physically moving the clips or switching the A/B down below.

I'm up to about 2,000 scenes and note that all the music is in WAV format - no MP3s. The "export all and save" folder is 18GB.

I'm running this on an MBP15 with 4GB RAM and a 500GB drive (on Mac 10.5, not snow leapard). I've boosted the latency to 1024 samples.

I'm finding this set to
1. take forever to load, it still wants to open samples, buffer them as if it's decoding them (which it shouldn't right?)
2. not be smooth when launching new clips when I have a lot going on already - like there's a slight pause -- not that it breaks time, but it isn't fluid

I am afraid to dup the channels 1,3,5 to 2,4,5 for fear that this thing might blow up!

Next I tried to open the set on my MBP13 running snow leapard. It's got out of the box specs, 2GB RAM, a 120GB drive (well, there's 60GB free). I copied the 18GB folder onto this machine and it couldn't even open the set, saying there wasn't enough memory. What would it need the memory for? It's not loading that much into RAM and since it's WAV files, why would it need additional drive space?

So my questions are
1. When is a set just too big?
2. Aside from removing music, scaling back, is there anything I can do to make this smoother?
3. Is the answer more RAM (on either MBP15 or 13)?
4. In general, how does one optimize a large set?
5. Is there a way to understand if it's still decoding the WAV files?

Thanks all and happy holidays!

Best,

Loopscious

my god, this seems like a lot of work

good luck mate!