Ableton & Serato Announce...And it's FREE!

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
STRATEGY_510
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Re: Ableton & Serato Announce...And it's FREE!

Post by STRATEGY_510 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:39 pm

William wrote:
disco judas wrote:Hey,

I base my enthusiasm on the serato guy on the video saying you can use Live effects on serato djing.
I never liked autotune, I want my slightly out of tune guitar pitch bend to be exactly that, and I want to manually beat match my music, which is dead simple and feels great.
And I want my custom max reverb/phaser-loopers on top of it :)

Cheers!
Which vid is that? I thought I had seen them all and I don't think I heard anyone mention using Live's effects on tracks being played in Serato. I believe Live's effects can only be used on the Live track.

I'd love to be wrong though!

I think the reference in the video mentioning Live efx on Serato tracks is in the context of the Mixtape feature, meaniang you can export your Serato session as an ALS and add efx in Live.

STRATEGY

Bizon
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Re: Ableton & Serato Announce...And it's FREE!

Post by Bizon » Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:51 pm

rikhyray wrote:It is not that Traktor is good, better, great, whatever. If it was so great the Live users who use Traktor for DJing wouldnt be writing, bothering here. Just that we all look for are better tools to do what we want to do, Ableton hyped that Serato coop too much and now no Serato users, specially Traktor users are disappointed, not because they would have to spend money buying Serato since if anyone DJ professionally it is hardly big expense but we want to move ahead not backwards.
Nothing against Serato, decent, solid tool that made vinyl DJs life easier but as compared to current Traktor Pro, specially non vinyl emulation DJ feel like moving back 2 years or more.
There are lot of people here who use Traktor only because they cant use Live for DJing. I wouldnt think twice dropping Traktor but Serato even with Bridge is too weak option ,forcing me to use shitty soundcard and junk plasticware is lousy idea. I rather use Traktor with physically or virtually hooked Live using quality soundcard and midi controlers.
Just out of curiosity, how did Ableton over hype the colab? I remember people complaining because there was no more pressu issued for like a year after the initial announcement. the only hype that was created was by the Ableton users.

rikhyray
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Re: Ableton & Serato Announce...And it's FREE!

Post by rikhyray » Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:12 pm

Bizon wrote: the only hype that was created was by the Ableton users.
No, I dont even bother to read speculations threads, there were statements from Ableton, anyway, it is OK. Who knows maybe there were some really groundbreaking ideas that didnt work, or at least did not within time frame. Dont see any drama here, Serato users can rejoice for others there are so many other options.
Personally I am satisfied with Live 8, best since 5. The present development of midi controllers ,specially Novation and free developers contributions to those make my studio and live work so more exciting (and efficient) than ever. Things just getting better. So while I wish to minimise, simplify my setups, dispose Traktor and use Live only, and still hope Ableton will reconsider some solutiuons to DJ friendly browser, I have no complains, Ableton developed something what is of no use to me but definitely great for hundred of other users. Maybe next time I will be the lucky one.

kazey
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Re: Ableton & Serato Announce...And it's FREE!

Post by kazey » Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:03 pm

I created a forum account just to comment on this thread, i never use forums because someone always has a negative opinion on everything and throws their toys out the pram. If you dont like it, say what you would have liked to see added, stop bashing whats been done and maybe someone will read it and listen for future development.

I figured I throw in my opinions on this as im half way excited and half way wishing other things where added, and it will probably be long winded so be warned.

Firstly from the original press launches of the partnership its been made clear this product was for people who HAD BOTH ableton AND serato… OBVIOUSLY! They are both separate companies that need/want to make money, no one is going to give you anything for free so get over it.

I started Djing using CDJs then went over to ableton very early on but now as a club DJ I do find some things that ableton just cant do that you can with turntables or CDJs and wanted to go over to serato and have the option, bridge was the catalyst to buy serato for me.

Im assuming few of you have actually used serato because it is midi mapable in its current form, you dont need to buy 1210s or cdjs, when you have your serato soundcard you can use anything from a cheap midi keyboard to a pair of the new cdj2000s to control serato. saying that then it will im pretty certain be able to use your current midi controller to assign buttons to launch clips within the serato ableton... in fact the guy done it in the video as i think about it!

Also my big problem with most ableton DJs (and I am primarily an ableton DJ myself) is that the general conclusion is that it was technology holding DJing back that meant everyone was using turntables... 99.9% of your audience couldn't care less about effects, loops and whatever other fancy ideas you have, in fact people in a nightclub HATE that. they want to hear a song, have a smooth mix into another song and repeat the process, people hate the DJ messing with their favourite song! Ive seen it many times, someone mess around with what is essentially a well thought out ableton DJ set while people sit and chat among themselves and the next guy comes up with a couple of records, a beer in his hand & blows the roof off with just selecting the right songs!

The idea of having the session view inside serato is excellent! you should be able to just drag loops or songs or whatever from the serato search straight into live within serato, my problem is the apparent lack of ableton wave forms, ive always added extra beat markers as mixing points (intros and outros etc) within ableton and cant see how ill mix two songs ableton to ableton within the session view in serato without it!

Also in the real world of Djing outside of trying to impress other DJs or your mates, its not all about the mix and you often will play two songs that arent the same tempo back to back if people request it (which doesn’t work in ableton easily with the master tempo) and beat warping songs with a natural groove can ruin them, also a song such as ‘dizzee rascal – holiday’ for example (and its just an example no bashing the song choice its the first that came to mind as its quite new) is about 119bpm until the ravey bit at the end (where u’d likely be mixing out) which is 130bpm… ableton cant handle that properly, having the partnership will remove or provide a way around these problems. often none electronic songs have different tempos in the chorus and verses also which ableton isnt good at handling. having bothh will allow you to chose the best plan of action for each song or what mood your in, could i be bothered beat matching at 9pm when there is all of 5 people in the club, ehhh no, no i couldnt! but do i want to show off to the pretty girls in the front row at midnight twisting buttons and spinning records instead of what looks like watching youtube videos, yes... yes i do!

I have to admit though its not all roses, there are things I am disapointed about with this partnership and unlike most other complainers im going to outline them and I know this is THE FIRST PART so I assume its only a matter of time before these are addressed.

It would have been nice to have vinyl control over each ableton channel (or atleast 2 ableton channels) instead of what seems in essence to be a master output into just one serato deck. This would be great from an ableton DJ point of view but I do see the good bits about the master output however the option would be nice. This way it would be possible to have beat warped tracks in serato without having to resave as mp3s... speaking of which its been well documented (by ableton/serato themselves) that its possible to straighten out music in ableton and save it to use in serato, i would of thought serato reading .asd files would be step one, and i hope that is included! As it stands all I can see is an easy/good way to go from ableton to serato (which has been a matter of great discussion) and back again but no way to truly integrate the two other than playing samples over serato sets. the main thing you cant do being playing two ableton songs mixed together within the serato window, which would essentially provide the exact same set up as ableton DJs often use now only with the option to switch to serato whenever they want &&&&& at long last to use the serato soundcard as a soundcard for ableton (even if only inside serato window, but hopefully in normal ableton window too!)

These are minor things though and it always takes much more time to get the foundations worked out, these features will all hopefully filter through & with free software updates you cant complain. However i can complain that ableton are having a bit of a laugh only allowing this to work with ableton live 8... considering you can use a serato sl1 box which has been out longer than ableton 7! seems ableton added a wee money making curve ball into that where serato stayed true to its customer base instead of making them update to an sl3 if they didnt want to!

ableton to serato was always going to be about DJing live you cant do anything else with serato and i think with a few of the things ive mentioed and other people have mentioned you cant really ask for anything else from ableton/serato from a DJing point of view.

Realistically serato cant really offer ableton much with respect to production other than possibly being able to launch little sound loops on the fly rather than beat locked... especially handy with accapellas as they can be a nightmare to line up properly using warp markers as vocals dont always start on beat 1. serato within ableton would of been nice from a production aspect though, if anyone has downloaded serato or opened it up it just has a standard media player type thing going on and then when you plug your serato box in your turntables etc all show up... having that within ableton is surely not beyong the realms of possibility? it is very one sided towards the serato user but realistically what could serato give ableton to make it a better production tool? it does pretty good on its own and as ableton users i'd of thought that would of been a point to be proud of...

I do some production myself within ableton, remixes etc mainly & cant really see what else id want from ableton that serato could give it :S

rant over :)

Agent G
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Re: Ableton & Serato Announce...And it's FREE!

Post by Agent G » Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:31 pm

..Damn.....

kazey
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Re: Ableton & Serato Announce...And it's FREE!

Post by kazey » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:10 am

yea i did really go off on one there... didnt even think it'd be that long :S

DRStudio
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Re: Ableton & Serato Announce...And it's FREE!

Post by DRStudio » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:19 am

Ableton and Serato at NAMM 2010:

http://vimeo.com/8745411

Sorry if this was posted before.

disco judas
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Re: Ableton & Serato Announce...And it's FREE!

Post by disco judas » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:42 am

STRATEGY_510 wrote:
William wrote:
disco judas wrote:Hey,

I base my enthusiasm on the serato guy on the video saying you can use Live effects on serato djing.
I never liked autotune, I want my slightly out of tune guitar pitch bend to be exactly that, and I want to manually beat match my music, which is dead simple and feels great.
And I want my custom max reverb/phaser-loopers on top of it :)

Cheers!
Which vid is that? I thought I had seen them all and I don't think I heard anyone mention using Live's effects on tracks being played in Serato. I believe Live's effects can only be used on the Live track.

I'd love to be wrong though!


I think the reference in the video mentioning Live efx on Serato tracks is in the context of the Mixtape feature, meaniang you can export your Serato session as an ALS and add efx in Live.

STRATEGY

You can drag clips to the turntables, and clips can contain effects and max patches

Green Lemon
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Re: Ableton & Serato Announce...And it's FREE!

Post by Green Lemon » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:21 am

@kazey: Journalist by day, DJ by night? Or novelist? Just kidding, I'm really excited about it too.

@judas: I really think you're jumping the gun on this. Its quite clear that its not clips which can be dragged to turntables, but the master transport of Live which can be dragged to only one turntable- everything that's coming out of the master track on one deck in Serato. Which includes effects, sure, but only on audio which is internal to Live. No Live effects on the mp3s you're mixing in Serato. Sigh.

Well, I'm still quite excited about all this.
--
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TheFunkyBunch
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Re: Ableton & Serato Announce...And it's FREE!

Post by TheFunkyBunch » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:56 am

Can we use the Aux output on the Serato/Rane SL3 Sound card with Ableton?

I'd like to use that output as a cue mix when using Ableton via The Bridge.

Hidden Driveways
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Re: Ableton & Serato Announce...And it's FREE!

Post by Hidden Driveways » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:57 am

Kazey - thanks for your input...

Here's one point that isn't fully sorted in my brain. You have Scratch Live which has no automatic beat syncing (it's all done by hand), and you have ITCH which does have automatic beat syncing. Am I getting this right that The Bridge will sync your Ableton Set to the BPM of one of the Serato decks? So is there now going to be some form of automatic beat sync in Scratch Live?

Or am I just too tired to be posting a question right now? It took me so long to read to the end of this thread to see if this question had come up, that now I'm too exhausted to properly phrase the question.

Anyhow... I'm still psyched to cross The Bridge. But, I admit that it would be really nice to use Live's effects on a Serato deck playing a normal audio file (not the ATC). The effects that are built into the TTM57SL are so poorly implemented that I've only bothered to try to use them 3 or 4 times in the year and a half I've had the mixer. They're so difficult and annoying to use that they may as well not exist. Right I have an old Boss Delay pedal plugged into the FlexFX sends of the 57. That is my current DJ effect. I've been wanting to buy a KAOSSPAD, but I don't really want to spend money on something like that. So yeah, the Live effects bag would be seriously welcome in my current Scratch Live setup. Regardless though, I'm happy with the news.

People who don't own Serato - Here's another thing to consider... it's true that Scratch Live is everywhere in the clubs in the States. That's one of the main reasons I bought it. I would go out, see a really good DJ, make a point of sneaking around the booth to see what they were using - and it was always Serato. 100% of the time. Anyhow, now that The Bridge exists, Ableton DJ's don't have to worry about integrating their DJ rigs at the club. You just show up, plug your laptop into the installed Serato box, launch Scratch Live (you can load it on your computer for free without owning hardware), launch Ableton, throw your Live Set on a deck in Serato, pull up Live's GUI and you're on! Your Ableton DJ set is guaranteed to work in 100% of US clubs.

Pretty sweet, right?

Green Lemon
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Re: Ableton & Serato Announce...And it's FREE!

Post by Green Lemon » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:16 am

That is pretty sweet!
--
first 1k as chrysalis33rpm.

kazey
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Re: Ableton & Serato Announce...And it's FREE!

Post by kazey » Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:26 pm

@ Green Lemon journalist/ novelist... not as far apart as you might think haha

@ judas if you could drop clips into serato ( r one ableton channel per serato channel) that would be perfect, sadly you cant it seems... its master only

@ hidden driveways ive never used itch myself, but from what i understand when your using that 3rd deck idea so that you dont have you use up a serato turntable for ableton you will have the ableton tempo syncing to one deck (you chose... and hopefully can change the master deck on the fly for obvious reasons), there is an 'analyze' button in serato that looks through all your tracks and gives them a bpm etc but again back to the likes of that dizzee rascal track, serato says its 118bpm but at the end it is definately 130, just how well ableton reacts to that tempo change will make or break its usage really... there will be limitations to how that tempo sync thing will work, but no beat sync within serato itself... or its hardcore users would burn down their headquarters.

also great point about the serato boxes, never thought about that.

also about the effects... serato 2.0 will now have effects built in (not ableton effects... its own effects even if you dont own ableton or use bridge)... just as they partner with ableton... coincidence, i doubt it, so i would assume the serato effects will atleast be similar to some of abletons, doubtful there will be as many though, but the quality should be there.

Tarekith
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Re: Ableton & Serato Announce...And it's FREE!

Post by Tarekith » Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:48 pm

CDM has quite a bit more info on the Bridge:

http://createdigitalmusic.com/2010/01/1 ... #more-9112

Some interesting points he makes:

You can NOT scratch or reverse Live’s audio as if it were another deck (yet; of course, it’d be nice to see this in a future release).

Q. Wait – does that mean I need Serato ITCH or Scratch Live hardware controllers in order to record my crossfades?

A. Yes. Turntablists aren’t entirely left out, though: the Rane TTM 57SL and the newly-announced TTM-68 performance mixers do record mix automation. And you’ll still have other automation data with which to work, so this is still likely to be useful to everyone, even if there’s some level of variability between the different versions. (If that’s of interest, we can follow up more later.)

Q. Won’t adding plug-ins interfere with the stability of Serato?

A. That’s worth considering. Aside from stability problems or crashes, adding a lot of plug-ins could increase resource consumption on your computer, add more musical complexity that you have to control, and even – in the case of certain plug-ins that require latency compensation – impact your timing. So Serato users, you’ll want to be really careful and test thoroughly before gigging with a massive Serato-Live set.

Q. How do Serato and Live output to your audio interface, if they’re not routing audio into one another? Can they share an audio output? Might some people just route audio separate for independent mixing and busing via a mixer?

A. That’s a good question, and the short answer is, I don’t know. I turned to Ableton for an answer, but it seems like we may have to wait for more details. Jesse Terry advises us to “stay tuned, we are aware of the complications here and are working to find a simple solution for the end user.”

Q. How do I trigger clips in Live from the Serato interface? Can I use ITCH controllers?

A. Right now, there aren’t ITCH or Scratch Live controllers with controls dedicated for Live, though presumably such hardware could appear in the future. So you can use ITCH or Scratch Live to control the Live transport, and you can see visual feedback in the Serato interface as far as what’s happening in Live, but that’s about it.

-----------

It sounds like to completely use all the new features, you'd need not only Scratch hardware, but also one of the two DJ mixers mentioned, and possibly a second soundcard for Live's output. And there's still no controllers that will let you trigger clips from the Serato interface.

McQ714
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Re: Ableton & Serato Announce...And it's FREE!

Post by McQ714 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:18 pm

so if it's not scratching or reversing Live's audio, what is it doing? does it just jump the transport back with no audio being output? what exactly is the point of that except for the audio just keeping in time within the mix? seems to me that the most obvious use for this would've been to keep from having to load up sample after sample to scratch. if you have an mp3 loaded as a Live clip then you can obviously already load that in Scratch and Itch. this seems to be nothing more than a sample player... at the moment.

i continue to be unexcited about this!

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