Problems achieving maximum headroom

[Owen252]

hi guys

im still fairly new to ableton, made a few mixes getting a decent sound but always looking to improve and having a few problems.

I'm using Sonalskis limiter & compressor on my mixes.

What i currently am doing, i have the limiter and the compressor sat on the main channel. Eq eight on each track

Now a problem i've been having, when i activate a low cut filter on eq eight, its actually boosting the signal im getting into the red, even though its audibly cutting the low end, which i think is making the limiter kick in and muffling the sound. Any ideas why this is?

Would like to know how you guys get the most volume out of your DJ mixes without losing sound quality, im trying to get a radio show sound like a state of trance has if anybody is familiar with it.

cheers for any help !

owen

[Owen252]

also when you double click a tune to bring up the waveform, will reducing the gain reduce the sound quality of that track?

[Tone Deft]

why did you put that stuff on the master?

[Owen252]

i have no idea mate! new to ableton so i just guessed it would be best to put it over the master? should i just have the limiter on the master?

[Tone Deft]

cool.

other people will chime in with better info, but my $0.02...

yeah, it's a common perception that we need compressors and limiters on the master. for my taste it kills the dynamics of the music. I would take ALL that stuff out, practice your set and use your ears to hear what the mix is doing, THEN drop in an effect. BUT for that style of hard hitting dance music it might be OK. PLUS AFAIK radio stations limit and compress the crap out of music before it goes out on the airwaves, stuff they won't let you turn off or even tell you about (my guess.)

you chose those songs because they sound good as they are, they don't need effects, they don't need compressors and limiters and EQs. if the EQs are for DJ performance stuff, make sure you know how to turn them off or flatten them when you're not using them. a good bit of advice I picked up was that effects don't make a track sound good, good source material makes a track sound good.

if you're unsure of your mixing and know that you're likely to push the Master meters into the red, drop a limiter on it, then practice using it, that is to say, practice not driving it real hard. it's there to save you but you shouldn't rely on it.

I'd forget the compressors altogether. BUT I have seen a Live setup from a band that travels the world (Pitch Black) where they put NOTHING* on their Master track, they just put LIGHT compression on their other tracks to ensure they can never sum and make the Master go into the red. granted they really know their shit, dunno if I could describe the process to set that up. (*they might put other stuff on the Master but they don't use a compressor, no need to.)

I'd recommend you read up on compressors, how they work, what the knobs on your compressor mean. they can be totally abused (ever hear about the BS 'Loudness Wars' that are killing today's music?) or used as helpful tools.

you might find some of these guides helpful.
http://www.tarekith.com/misc.html

hth

[d-track]

the above +
dont use ableton limiter, use compressor isntead set for limiting. much better.
if the tracks already mastered (including compression) then "double mastering" is the way to degrade the sound...

[tlennon]

the above +
dont use ableton limiter, use compressor isntead set for limiting. much better.
if the tracks already mastered (including compression) then "double mastering" is the way to degrade the sound...

Agree with all the above but never found any difference with limiter vs. compressor limiting.

[d-track]

the above +
dont use ableton limiter, use compressor isntead set for limiting. much better.
if the tracks already mastered (including compression) then "double mastering" is the way to degrade the sound...

Agree with all the above but never found any difference with limiter vs. compressor limiting.

there is no way to change the curve of the limiter and it brings that "ducking" compression into the mix. compressor can be set to more transparent than limiter.
my 2 cents

[Dr. Zoiberg]

compressor, limiter... or saturator ?

[Owen252]

cool.

other people will chime in with better info, but my $0.02...

yeah, it's a common perception that we need compressors and limiters on the master. for my taste it kills the dynamics of the music. I would take ALL that stuff out, practice your set and use your ears to hear what the mix is doing, THEN drop in an effect. BUT for that style of hard hitting dance music it might be OK. PLUS AFAIK radio stations limit and compress the crap out of music before it goes out on the airwaves, stuff they won't let you turn off or even tell you about (my guess.)

you chose those songs because they sound good as they are, they don't need effects, they don't need compressors and limiters and EQs. if the EQs are for DJ performance stuff, make sure you know how to turn them off or flatten them when you're not using them. a good bit of advice I picked up was that effects don't make a track sound good, good source material makes a track sound good.

if you're unsure of your mixing and know that you're likely to push the Master meters into the red, drop a limiter on it, then practice using it, that is to say, practice not driving it real hard. it's there to save you but you shouldn't rely on it.

I'd forget the compressors altogether. BUT I have seen a Live setup from a band that travels the world (Pitch Black) where they put NOTHING* on their Master track, they just put LIGHT compression on their other tracks to ensure they can never sum and make the Master go into the red. granted they really know their shit, dunno if I could describe the process to set that up. (*they might put other stuff on the Master but they don't use a compressor, no need to.)

I'd recommend you read up on compressors, how they work, what the knobs on your compressor mean. they can be totally abused (ever hear about the BS 'Loudness Wars' that are killing today's music?) or used as helpful tools.

you might find some of these guides helpful.
http://www.tarekith.com/misc.html

hth

hey mate i've read your guide and ive tried my best at it for the last few days but im still stuck. for my mixes im using tracks that i have bought. Playing them at 0 db and using the sonalksis RMS meter to see how loud they are. What i've been doing to set the gains is this.

reset RMS meter - play track for its full length - reduce gains to match other tracks.

should i just be listening to the loudest part of the tune and setting it that way?

I've spoken to a professional DJ who uses ableton to make his podcasts asking him how he got his sound so well and he said he did it by having a compressor over the 2 tracks and a limiter over the master, like i've set mine up.

getting really frustrated, hopefully i'll get it in the end!

on your guide it says "Typically my tunes end up around being -5 to -6 dB on this fader" (being the clip volume fader that you can save in the asd file. mine have been nowhere near that low, even on really loud tracks.

can you point me in the right direction? sorry to be a pain i really appreciate all your help

[Owen252]

should i have turned warp mode off when setting gains?

[Owen252]

also what RMS do you guys aim for? -6.5 a bit too high?

[Tone Deft]

definitely listen to your friend.

FWIW those aren't my guides, they're made by Tarekith, I don't know 1/10th of what that guy knows about this stuff.

as for levels, be a DJ, go ahead and adjust the fader as the song plays. the radio station will compress the hell out of the signal anyway.

IMO -6.5dB isn't too high, it's fine, just do not hit 0dB. I guess I'd say that you want to be between -10dB and -3dB but that's a guess, others can give you better info.

the important thing is that you understand why you'd put a compressor or limiter in certain places. what do you think?

you'll be fine, a radio broadcast will cover A LOT of mistakes. just focus on your set list and DJ trickery, most of all, have fun, people can feel that over the air.

[Cryptic UK]

Thinner sole?

[Owen252]

Owen252, your tracks are at 0dB with comp/limiting on the 2 right? Well consider this - in the analog realm, -18dBFS (decibels full-scale) is generally considered to be 0VU, meaning -18dB is ZERO. Your mixes are peaking near 18dB above line-level consistently from start to finish which I'd bet is why they don't sound right.

Using a compressor with maybe a limiter IS the right thing to do here, just not when you're feeding them such an overloaded signal. Turn the preamp volume of your tracks down to at least -12dB (meaning the volume meter in the clip itself, not the track vol) & turn the volume of the master up either w/ its meter or by using a Utility plug.

Now place your comp before the plug - turn auto-makeup OFF and leave the output gain ALONE. Adjust to your needs, then turn the volume of the master up again if need be via the previous method.

If you need a limiter in there here's how to set it: Drag both the thresh & out-ceiling down together with the same dB value until you hit the sweet spot, where it's not so low that you're distorting yet low enough to grab yer peaks. Raise master output again w/ prev method

Congratulations, I'd write a friendlier farewell but this took long to write

Levi

hi mate, cheers for your help.

Is the compressor now sat on the master or on each chanel?

Also how do i turn up the master if it is already on full?