What Cakewalk is Doin is Straight Gangsta... :(

raapie · Post by **raapie** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:36 am

and it doesn't look like ACID to you???

bermudagold · Post by **bermudagold** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:35 am

They were talking about this a few months ago on kvr.......the gui left to right workflow and interface pane arrangement is almost identical.....the groove matrix from what i've read has the same essential functionality of session view......u pane back and forth between them jus like live, they jus added the flexibility to have both up at the same time......it has most of the same audio loop manipulation tools including warp markers and slicing......plus they added what live doesn't have.....track freeze, direct x instrument and effect support, MFX support, simplified routing and synth layering, project mgmt. tools, more bundled instruments......they straight bit live without a doubt and obviously hung around on this forum....thats the downside of being the innovator

bottom line: new project 5 does pretty much everything live does and some pretty major things it doesn't for what...399$....for the next couple of months buy old version for 199.....get free upgrade.......traktion does most of what live does except session view, onboard midi effects, and depth of audio manipulation(a big deal for dj's, less so for musicians)....and things it doesn't...(track freeze, visual open routing for audio and midi, multi synth and effect custom filters saved as presets,project mgmt. tools,) ...for $80-199.......while live cost 500-650.....I like live a lot and respect the innovation......but they're definitely gonna have to continually study the market and their feature for feature price point ......as these guys are clearly going after first time DAW purchasers and converts alike.

linzatti · Post by **linzatti** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:15 am

yes, of course... But ableton did that with the 4.o version - with the added VSTi and Audio Unit support. Just wondering what to do next. I converted from using Reason fully for my productions. SInce I've never tried Cubase or Sonar, I don't know which one of the of them's the best. What I do know is that Live's workflow suits me like a glow. The process "from sketch, to production" is very creative and inspiring when working with Live.

Sure it was great when they released the 4.1 version, with the new Operator plug-in and all... But I have to admit that I haven't been using Operator the slightest - it does what my other plug-ins do, only a little less.

raapie · Post by **raapie** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:15 am

interesting. Sonar's timestretching in version4 sounded super when I tested it using a beta version (I am still a 2.2XL user but never use it). Should be stable if the are trying to get this stuff on stage

bytheriver · Post by **bytheriver** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:36 am

Did you read this quote from a beta tester, under 'quotes'

Overall, what do you like best about Project5 Version 2, and how do you think you will benefit from the new features?

“It's truly innovative... not a 'me too' product.”

I have to say though, if project5 v2 is easier on the CPU use than Live, which i'm sure it will be if it has track freeze, i'll consider switching for production.

For live use, it'd have to be a very good product to sway me from live4.

Benshik · Post by **Benshik** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:14 am

LiveLong wrote:Do they make it in China??

No, not China, Turkey.

Soon, go to cakewalk's site and check out the

PROJECT FIVE SUPER PERFORMANCE BUNDLE!!!!

In addition of "Five", the sequencer you can play like an instrument, you get in your bundle
a stylish Pucci outfit, Adidaks shoes and a free Pumma laptop bag!

All you need to look cool on stage!!

hambone1 · Post by **hambone1** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:33 pm

It's just another tool.

Quit bitching about it and get on with making music.

It's a free-market world.

My two cents, FWIW.

onyxashanti · Post by **onyxashanti** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:39 pm

let ye who writes completely original music cast the first stone.

sorry, but that is the way life and business and software [and and and]....goes. that's why they [music sequencing software] all had the familiar timeline layout for years; because one company pioneered it and others copied, added some little tweak and touted it as their idea. i think it's great that this is happening. because i've used many different music software programs over the years, and i find that quality is quality...period. when every music sequencer is made this way, 2 things will happen;

1. the overall quality and feature inclusion of all of them will grow as they all try to differentiate their products while adhering to a central feature set.

2. people always refence the 1st and the best [cubase, photoshop, pro tools, the M1, etc].

You can't be the best, if you are the only one. there is nothing to gauge your bestness against. how can ableton be the best if they are the only one in their class? and lets be real...there is nothing in abletons class, at the moment. ableton came in with a whole new paradigm and did it with class and a level of stability that was believed to be impossible. i'm surprised that it took this long. competition will keep them on their toes. they can't just rest on the speciality of LIVE anymore.

the reason i'm not interested in the new project5 is because i've already invested time and money in the system that i have and i trust this system to be of high quality and fullfill my creative needs, but i usually add new bits every few months or so and have no aversion to investigating something new. although project5 will most likely be bloated and buggy, like alot of their stuff lately, someone else may get it right, and i have no problem checking it out.

onyx

toneroll · Post by **toneroll** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:55 pm

LOFA wrote:Microsoft software is pretty much free if you purchase a PC or have the imagination a gnat. They still make shit loads. Cakewalk is trying to bully around in here with their ties and stash. The Abes are still young in this game and are selling things that they make which (although seem to use a lot of CPU) hold true to DAW they were born for, in that they are seemlessly integrated into the system (sans the extra buck fifty) and allow for a creative environment that is unparalled. Just because some company decided to bundle in a couple of their synths, does not in anyway allow their Package to compared in the same terms. And if I am wrong, and this software is that similiar to LIve... then, like Pitch Black was saying... I can see Johnnie Cochrane's hands, busting out of the grave, like that Mike Zeck cover where Spidey comes back from the dead... The money would just be too easy.

like i said i dont really like the look of project 5 but , i do think live takes the piss with operator, sorry but thats my opinion, ive said it before , theyre trying to squeeze more money out of us for what other companys give us for free....... i bet that npulse sounds 10 x better than impulse... for a start its a synth and impulse dont make any sound till you put samples in it...... and rgca audio willbe makin instuments for it and sonar soon , so what im saying is 1. abletons instuments are a bit (IMO) kaka and cost you more money , and others' bundled stuff not only works in other hosts but are generally better (simpler is shite aswell)

soon as someone cracks the session view , and yeah totally copies it if they want , ableton is gonna have some serious competion if they can't bundle a simple fm synth thats ironically imbedded in the program! have you evere heard of such shit?

my 2 cents

onek · Post by **onek** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:09 pm

onyxashanti wrote:let ye who writes completely original music cast the first stone.

Well..... yesss...... Nothing is totally original, we all have our influences - "nothing new under the sun" and all that - but where do you draw the line on what is innovative and original and what is facsimile and reproduction?

If I am writing a song and I get to a point where I realise I have bitten someone else's music - a legitimate "subconcious steal" perhaps, where I realise the brilliant riff I thought I'd made up was actually something I've heard before. When that happens I make a decision not to go there, it isn't original, so I take it out.
Contrast this with taking someone elses creation and going gunning for it, conciously making a me-too product. Which is what I think has happened here. OK, so maybe there is some further development and some refinements, but I would argue thats more "theme and variations".

*winding up for the big punch now - semi-pretentious language follows*

Live is the leit-motif that thunders throughout Sonar's opus.

...shouldn't they like, kinda have to pay something to use that motif??

toneroll · Post by **toneroll** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:24 pm

only if live goes and pays for ripping all the features of its arrange view, of steinberg or who ever invented the sequencer..

and it would be intersting to know who had the idea to implement the timstrech feature????? sonars had it for ages , and so has acid...

i say i hope project five really puts the wind up these guys , why?

theree are a shit load of features that need adressing , if other people are making live features and session views maybe ableton will revolutionise their arrange veiw (with no extra cost!!!!) or at least bring it up to par, instead of rolling out poo synths for half the price of the damn sequencer nearly.

i still love live tho, thats why i'd like it to remain my favorite...

Dogen · Post by **Dogen** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:05 pm

I just purchased Live 4 a short time ago and I must say that if I had known P5 v2 would be like this, I would have waited to try both apps before buying. Don't get me wrong, I REALLY love Live. It's completely changed my workflow for the better but it's far from perfect and has quite a few limitations.

I agree that Cakewalk is ripping off Live, but as others have mentioned, that's what ALL software companies do. (Do you think Ableton invented timestretching or the arrange view?) And rather then bitching about it, you should all be happy because it will force Ableton to work harder to provide us with a better product with more and more features.

That's why we have anti-monopoly laws here in the States. Because a lack of competition ultimately short changes the customer. Whether it manifests in the form of higher prices or a lack of innovation, we're the ones who get screwed if a company goes about its business unchallenged.

An open mind is a good thing.

hoffman2k · Post by **hoffman2k** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:20 pm

The key to Ableton Live is the userbase it has.
Thats something other DAW manufacturers don't understand. (unless you spell it u$erba$e)

Live is a breath of fresh air to any creative soul. If you can't make decent tracks without PDC, then i pity your lack of creativity.
Ableton Live came to existence as the brainchild of Mr. Henke. It grew along with it's userbase.
If anybody says the Ableton doesn't listen to us.... Well, i look forward to dismiss that argument.

About cakewalk.....
There's a difference between ripping off and trying to rip something off.
Any live 4 users feeling the urge to give their precious up? I though so....

@Toneroll

Nobody forces you to buy the operator. If you don't like it, then by any means get something else.
When beta testing Live 4, Ableton asked us if we would like to see an Ableton synth.
We gladly responded yes. And we got it.
It's one of those situations when "you had to be there"

Sales Dude McBoob · Post by **Sales Dude McBoob** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:43 pm

I think Ableton should fight fire with fire. YES- keep innovating and making amazing additons to Live...

Being a pro audio salesman, the Cakewalk product that sells the most is the cheap $89 and $150 Homestudio multitrack stuff. Seriously, for whatever reason no one ever buys Sonar, even though lots of people have it.

I think Ableton should make a new line of product for the people out there who are just getting started with home recording. It's a HUGE market, and it's growing.

Seriously, the Abes should crack the code of Guitar Tracks Pro, slap their logo on it, give it a Live Delta feature or two, and rename it Cupcake Tracks Pro and ship it. The Abes could bust that out in no time, double their product line, and take a slice out of the Cake.

I'd happilly sell it all week long over Cakewalk.

malarky · Post by **malarky** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:03 pm

i don't see anything wrong here.

ableton started as an audio sequencer with live performance functionality. it's user base requested virtual intrument and midi support. they got.

project 5 started as a virtual instrument sequencing workstation. their user base requested audio and live performance functionality. they're getting it.

in the end it just means better products and better prices for the users of both product lines.

and to be fair, nPulse was around since P5 version 1.0 - before Impulse.

http://namm.harmony-central.com/WNAMM03 ... ject5.html