Controler Design. Do actual Crtlr really adress stage needs?

[3phase]

Hi.. here a little poll again.. since years i am cnstantly not happy with any controler i buy but allways have seen it as a waste of time to build an own one for time reasons..

My main concern is szise versus control...

See the behringers.. nice unit.. but mad arteficial heavy.. they realy have the steel plate inside, and they are very bulky..

My live set is still based on hardware.. i often had to leave the behringers at home because they was just to big to be used at a club gig together with 2 synths and 2 drummachines...

Same with the APC.. nice unit... but way to big and heavy.. i only used it once on stage.. and actualy the weight was good because it was possible to have it hanging half over the table..


Now i got a launchpad.. to use with L7 of cause...

Its nice..but..
Why is theese launpad so huge? its lighter than the APC and buspowred but not much smaller...

why do all theese controle manufactors think that szise matters? i see that my hardware has to be big and heavy... but all this computer crap?

would be easily possible to designe a 12x8 launchpad with 30 mm faders and some extra buttons for mutes and transport n the same footprint without loosing ergonomics... and i have big hands..

beside the waste of space its a great lightwight unit..

But i am personally used to work on mixing desks that have small space between the controls.. rolands machines with tight positioned 30 mmm faders.. or miniature keyboards..

why does a simple controler like launchpad needs to be spacier than a grandpiano? regarding the distance between keys..

Wouldnt it be nice if ther would be controlers with a small formfactor and many controls?

Wouldnt it be possible to do this all way smaller?

Does a cheap product have to be huge to compensate for something?
are ther others that would like to have it as small as possible?

or is the majority pleased with big and spacey controls?

any opinions?

thnx

[davepermen]

i personally tried quite some stuff in shops, and in the end got the faderfoxies. so i think i like small and portable (and flexible as you can use tons of different gear besides each other).

i do understand big and sturdy, tho. just not my thing.

[caaflex]

IMO if the launchpad was any smaller you may fat finger a couple of the buttons and launch the wrong scenese. especially if u have big hands. i thought it was a good size. way smaller than the APC40 but more buttons.

maybe you should look into building some kind of travel case/coffin that you can fit your gear in? maybe one that has a couple of different levels that raise as you open it up.

i hear you though, i doubt there is a controller out there that will do it all for anyone. i've always toyed with the idea of building my own but i dont really have the time or the $$ to put into a project that may fall on its face. a guy out here in Colorado actually built a HUGE controller that looks like an arcade machine. calls it the Colossus. heres pics....





"189 points; including joysticks, giant knobs, spinners, faders, and lots of arcade and slot machine buttons, many of them lit."

heres his blog if u want to read about it... http://etherealleminor.blogspot.com

sorry for the tiny pics, but it's all i could find at the moment.

[3phase]

ok..thats indeed gigantic.. and in case thats the only thing you put on stage its probably ok..

but as a musican you are actually used to play with precission. see an electric guitar.. people to mange to play theese strings quickly without accidently hitting them twice..

or even a huge grand piano.. which is so spacy to allow fast independent finger action with 10 fingers simultaniously..

but the launchpad is even spacier than the key distance on a piano...


anyway.. cant argue about taste..
and when you really play the launchpad with 8 fingers simultaniously the szise is ok..

But I defently wouldnt mind if there would be a pocket version.. with similar formfactor than the tenori thing from yamaha.. which is pretty playable even when the buttons are very close together..
a rounded shape is the trick there ..

Maybe yamaha should do an controler

[davepermen]

But I defently wouldnt mind if there would be a pocket version.. with similar formfactor than the tenori thing from yamaha.. which is pretty playable even when they buttons are very close together..
a rounded shape is the trick there ..

that would be cool indeed. i'd get it right now and throw away the old one.

[SubFunk]

no not at all, and if you talk to developers of hardware they don't seem to understand a fucking thing, damn office desk people.

rant, super, rant, when do companies really start listen to users / artists ???

NI gets lately closer, though... others should follow that example. well they are not perfect yet, but they at least hitting the right direction.

[dum]

well, it's better to be too spacey than too cramped. So maybe the manufacturers are just being cautious.

I agree though that the footprint on the launchpad could have been smaller

[3phase]

well, it's better to be too spacey than too cramped. So maybe the manufacturers are just being cautious.

I agree though that the footprint on the launchpad could have been smaller

to be small and tight hasnt stoped the Roland 606 303 to be a huge success.. and they have actualy exactly half the distance between the buttons as we have on the launchpad but still more space than on the Tenori..

And as i said... musicans are usually tactile pretty well trained ..
And in clubgigs the space one gets offered gets smaller and smaller because of all the laptop acts durig the last years while actually the trend is back to more hardware or hardware like control on stage..

and the djs have laptops and controlers now aswell.. space on stage is an issue for the performing elecronic musican.. we usually dont have the huge arena..

[davepermen]

And in clubgigs the space one gets offered gets smaller and smaller because of all the laptop acts durig the last years while actually the trend is back to more hardware or hardware like control on stage..

i'm happy that more and more clubs move away from turntables to cdjs by now. they are at least unpluggable, so you can take them away to get some of the space. but it can be terribly small space to place your stuff on indeed. which is why i love everything small. 12" laptop, launchpad (==small apc for me), lemur (could be smaller, but still quite small for the controller-space you get), but the most fitting to the topic: the faderfoxies. very tiny. would love to see more products from them.

[3phase]

but the most fitting to the topic: the faderfoxies. very tiny. would love to see more products from them.

faderfoxes look cool but are overprized and use midi.. my midi ports are to valuable on stage to plug cotrolers.. i need them for the keyboards..

They are however the only ones, still on the market, that have realized that no one needs 100 mm faders on stage..

I personally would say that 30 mm is enough.. and very playable as i ve learned with my 707/727 experiance..

which i used in the past with really overloaded patterns that was actually transformed into grooves and rythmes by just fader action..

There was a very nice product from JL Cooper..

For me the best stage fader box ever build.. but like so often with truly great products not supported anymore..



such a thing with 8 rotarys instead the 6 fixed pots and a 16x16 half grid szise lunchpad..and you are done for all the basics..

[dum]

@3phase
cramped buttons & faders I don't mind.

but cramped pots are a big No-No for me. As far as I know, the 303's etc had small pots with enough space between them. plus they are stumpy, shorter pots - easier again to grab and tweak with small space.

I have one of these:


and those pots are too chunky for me, to use with that much space between them for any kind of rhythmic tweaking. They are fine for other uses though. But still, it's annoyingly cramped. they would be so much better to use if they were even 30% more narrow and 30% shorter...

[3phase]

@3phase
cramped buttons & faders I don't mind.

but cramped pots are a big No-No for me.

I agree. pots need space to be musical.. the 303 is really a great design example..a machine where everything is wright...

from the circuit..to the specs.. the sequnecer is still more capabel than in all the clones...

none of the clones allows me to mix trioles and 16th in a pattern over 4 bars... really none..


Its actualy wright that the people that develop theese days are no musicans anymore.. or to unexperianced to even see the need to combine thirds and 16 th in multibar patterns..

or to have it small where necessary and spacy wher necessary.. they probably never worked with all the old machines to know about the achivements of the past..and therefore when they reinvent the wheel its not a real progress..just a lame copy of former glory.. because they dont build up..they rather reduce in terms of practical application.. these days function follows design..

not the other way around as it should be

[3phase]

One other example regarding the design error of today..

please compare













And this



















Anybody sees what i like to point at?

[davepermen]

the old ones where specific purpose device, and thus excelled at that. the new ones often are "look i have tons of buttons, you sure find a use for me" style?

and this is the reason i got the lemur. it's no purpose, but at least flexible enough to tailor it down to the specific purpose you want. (but very expensive for that, and i miss knobs.. )

[Captain Johnson]

I don't find the APC40 is too big or too heavy. I can fit everything I need into my stash pack Ableton bag for gigs, including laptop, soundcard, uberstand, wires, APC40, plugs, more wires. No problem.