Hey Tone Def - Launchpad Mapping

[3phase]

I really like the LP. But paging never works for my hand/eye coordination when under pressure in the heat of creative throes. I need everything available right there.

Thats the one and main thing theese so called designers and developers are not aware of...that playing live is not like sitting in your armchair and do a little coding or drawing along..

Its pretty obvious that the developers lack stage expertise..

Probably caused by the playback tradition in electronic music..
From the beginning there was the backing tape and the hardware sequencer fraction..

The hardware emerged to software/laptop based systems.. but in the same time the DAT/ TApe on stage also was replaced by the laptop..


So when one applys to a job for developing controlers or live related software now.. he can claim to have done many of gigs with a laptop and a certain sofware but having no clue what playing live is about in the same time.. he is not lieing.. he was on stage.. but that just is not enough if you are a playback act..

you never have prodced enough adrenalin on stage to know that only direct and simple things work than..

No secondary operations.. That means..operations wher you need a second thaught.. for the guitarist there is no second thaught when pullig a string.. thats how instruments work..

ANd that stage related soft and hardware has to be simple and direct for all main or primary operations

regarding the lunchpad wich is a simple unit there are only a view points that come in mind...


- orientation on dark stages is bad.. the lightning options regarding the controls are not used well...

bad design point 1

- session view is ok.. but..

-would be nice if clipstop button would be adressed by a double keystroke,
-would be nice if global quantisation values ould be adressed by the lower secne launch buttons..
-would be nice if self adressed track related parameters would be handled and dynamical adressed to the selected tracks..
-would be nice if navigation would only jump in 8 blocks horizontaly.. because thats the way you need it on stage..and this has to be performed quickly.. so a dedicated primary one button operation..

for a clip stop you have to wait anyway ..but overview you need to have in the moment you need it..at once..

single step scrolling has to be the double key stroke.. not the 8 block jump...

this is the one design flaw that shows most clearly that the developpers dont tried to use one of theire devices on real stage situations..

- there is no status indication of the selcted clip.
- there is no grouptrack indication
the last 2 points hurt badly and are actually poor design, would have been easily possible with the lightning options of the LP

I cant give a bad design point to the session page as in total one cant give a bad design point for the whole of the lunchpad or APC...

but the degree of development is poor.. at least regarding stage aspects..

So lets call it poor desing or half developed..


The Mixer page..

this is actualy bad design again... when i go to a mixer page the first thing i want to see is levels..

ok.. we dont have that..instead we see the mute/solo page..not too bad.. but the upper half of the matrix is wasted with aux reset buttons.. the one of the most useless and actually dangerous things i´ve ever seen..
it never sounds nice to switch an fx send just off... or pump a level sudenly to the max,,

so this page is not only useless..it´s dangerous for the integrity of the mix of your live show...

bad design !!

And.. what would have been if the upper half just acts as the session view?

4 rows of clip launch.. just no scene launches.. together with mutes and solos..track arms.. and status indication of playing tarcks..
What a performant and powerfull alternativ session page this would have been..

even allowing selection and recording of clips on stage an the fly without much secondary operation..

wow.. how can one miss on such an option?

because its called mixer page? sorry..the first page is not a mixer page at all.
It´s a level reset and mute page..

besides.. if this would have been desigend in the way i´ve just mentioned, the page would act as a bridge to the actual mixer pages..


So you would go from

session overview..

to

half session overview and mutes

and from there

directly to the desired fader page...


soo you keep eye contact with the clip status, at least for the upper 4 rows.. while going to the mixer age..

just a little half second.. but just little half second would make the operation feel smoother...



Anyway.. Conclusion..

for whatever reason.. sales arguments for MFL or just wrong people as developers..


The software implementation of the lunchpad just scratchs the surface from what it could be and is defently not developed to a high degree.. it appears pretty quickly done without any secondary thaugt...

When it need the user 1 minute to spot the flaws it actualy looks a bit like very quick developed..

Same applys po the APC..but not to such an degree..

There is more thaught and effort in the APC implementation..

Beside teh lack of user adjustments.. what is clearly ment to be done with MFL..what is bad but nothing you cant blame them too much..

I would give the APC a develeopment degree of 75%
and the Lunchpad only 50%

Booth Units do the design crime to care more for the look than for the function..

Theese quadratic square idea is just stupid..looks good i agree..but dont matches the reality on the screen.

As a dedicated controler just a waste of space, material and overview.

Even Novations own automapping software dont diplays the lunchpad as a square..to dont waste screen space..

The APC could have 8 rows of trigger buttons easily in the same housing..at least for me it would have been great than..

5 rows are just not enough for non playback acts..

with 5 rows there is no space for orientation or sub scenes...

you end with solid blocks where every clip slot is engaged..total loss of overview is the result..


So..just for the quadratic looks we lost a lot of possible funcionality..

the lunchpad would be at least 12 rows.. finer resolution for the faders.. or a mix page that can show 8 rows of cliplaunch and still have stop,mue,solo and arm..


Theese dedictaed ableton controlers are quite blond in many ways...

[outershpongolia]

you spend so much damn time typing about this issue why don't you pick up a MIDI board and make your own controller?

seems like it'd save you a bunch of grief..

[3phase]

you spend so much damn time typing about this issue why don't you pick up a MIDI board and make your own controller?

seems like it'd save you a bunch of grief..

allways this retard and shellfish arguments.. i critzise stupidity and bad design to get rid of it..what maybe leads to better controlers for everybody than just for myself..

was the same with the crash bugs.. users that allways say that everything is sooo great if its not dont help the state of the product.



never had such a quick turnaround time with equipment than with ableton controlers.. any shitty little fader box stays for decades.. but with abletn controler you think about selling them within weeks...

the second hand market will be flodded with theese things in no time..

and i might use cheap second hand apcs and LP´s as part source for own projekts than

[outershpongolia]

but with abletn controler you think about selling them within weeks...

the second hand market will be flodded with theese things in no time..

Isn't there only 3 ableton controllers? LP, APC40, APC20?

How many do you have man?

I'm just saying.. if you don't like them don't buy them.

yum, shellfish.

[oddstep]

the mixer page on the launchpad and the lack of instant mapped device control are shortcomings that only start becoming obvious in a live setting. I bought one for the lights and access to the session grid. Gradually i have run into its design anomalies. Make your own really sucks as a response. I spend money because i do not want to spend time developing skills in controller construction and coding.

[3phase]

the mixer page on the launchpad and the lack of instant mapped device control are shortcomings that only start becoming obvious in a live setting. I bought one for the lights and access to the session grid. Gradually i have run into its design anomalies. Make your own really sucks as a response. I spend money because i do not want to spend time developing skills in controller construction and coding.

the degree of development is really bad.. equals with bad engineering quality..
As a german engineer i feel ashemed for the lack of thoughtfull detail.

Products that are desigend to be thrown away next year when the better version comes..

[hoffman2k]

In one thread he asks what a Monome does. In this one he's obviously talking crap about things he knows nothing about.
But what else is new?

[3phase]

In one thread he asks what a Monome does. In this one he's obviously talking crap about things he knows nothing about.
But what else is new?

i asked what a monome can do for one in a live show... thats a slight difference..


and that i know about what i am talking one can clearly see in the optimisations i suggested for the lunchpad..


its rather pretty obvious that the so called developers know nothing about stage realitys

[hoffman2k]

In one thread he asks what a Monome does. In this one he's obviously talking crap about things he knows nothing about.
But what else is new?

i asked what a monome can do for one in a live show... thats a slight difference..


and that i know about what i am talking one can clearly see in the optimisations i suggested for the lunchpad..


its rather pretty obvious that the so called developers know nothing about stage realitys

Apparently you're in the wrong business. You should be an engineer!
You can see what is wrong with software and hardware immediately.
Beats making an ass out of yourself in year, what is it 17-18 years into the Novamute album?
When it comes to procrastination I can only bow down before the master.

[hoffman2k]

Man.. I really gotta stop reading your posts in the morning.
Works better than coffee, but the aftertaste sucks.

[3phase]

Allways this little bitches that use private info when they run out of arguments...

however.. i delivered the album 8 years ago.. which was actually the 3rd,... the first was too ambient for them.. The second they found not sounding like 3phase enough and the third they liked but wanted dancefloor versions from it.. but this time we agreed that the contract was fullfiled

However stupid me havent forced them to take the ambient album in the first place.
had a broken leg at the time and dont reallly felt like dance music...But people like Ricardo still like and play this refused ambient album.. So it cant have been so bad after all..


but i agree.. i am the master of procrastination.. so bend down boy and pray...



You can bend here arguments around or mix it with personal attacks as you want..

Abletons controler implementation is far from good engineering..

they functionality is minimal.. in a bad sense.. they lack practicability in many details..especially when it comes to stage use..

and have flaws on the mechanical side.. Like beeing so in love to quadratic optics or placement of the usb port on the LP..

How can one oversee thats not so practical there? especially when you offer support for up to 6 devices..

have you seen the stupid image in the LP manual where the multiple LP are arranged as a stairway?


Please tell me how you define bad engineering than?

[hoffman2k]

but i agree.. i am the master of procrastination.. so bend down boy and pray...

Takes one to know one. Lord knows I could get more done..

and have flaws on the mechanical side.. Like beeing so in love to quadratic optics or placement of the usb port on the LP..

How can one oversee thats not so practical there? especially when you offer support from up to 6 devices..

have you seen the stupid immage in the LP manual where the multiple LP are arranged as a stairway?


Please tell me how you define bad engineering than?

Take a good look at the launchpad. The USB port is under the logo. Now open it up and see how long the usb board is.
If you're good with electronics, maybe you can Dremel a new port, but I think it would still stick out a little.
So either they made it bigger at the top or put the port at the side.

And the support from up to 6 devices.. Thats only because Live allows 6 control surfaces. If there were only 4, only 4 would be supported. If it was unlimited, unlimited would be supported. I'm willing to bet this thing was never designed to use multiple of them. Its just technically possible to do so.
And if you really wanted to build a bigger launchpad using multiple of them, 4 would be the perfect number. You can place them so the top and scene buttons are all around the grid. Unfortunately there isn't a rotation parameter for the grid yet.

[3phase]

And if you really wanted to build a bigger launchpad using multiple of them, 4 would be the perfect number. You can place them so the top and scene buttons are all around the grid. Unfortunately there isn't a rotation parameter for the grid yet.

i dont bother about the usb port and ableton is not the wright adress there anyway because the circuit board design is most likely in the hands of novation... otherwise ableton could have build the thing themself... anyway rather stupid that they havent done that... unlike Native instruments they havent trusted theier inhouse engineering abilitys there... or worried the cost to hire freelancers..

anyway.. the stuff that really sucks is the software implementation.. and thats the part that can be changed..

I just doubt that this will happen.. because it would have been easy to get it wright in the first place...ups...

i forgot... the ableton update cycle... the controler implementation is part of an ableton update..improovements there are defenetly sales arguments.. so it was actually wise from ableton to deliver the product slightly flawed..

if you need room for improovement you have to keep things rather ruff..


In the end of the day the Abes are the smartest..

[hoffman2k]

but i agree.. i am the master of procrastination.. so bend down boy and pray...

Takes one to know one. Lord knows I could get more done..

and have flaws on the mechanical side.. Like beeing so in love to quadratic optics or placement of the usb port on the LP..

How can one oversee thats not so practical there? especially when you offer support from up to 6 devices..

have you seen the stupid immage in the LP manual where the multiple LP are arranged as a stairway?


Please tell me how you define bad engineering than?

Take a good look at the launchpad. The USB port is under the logo. Now open it up and see how long the usb board is.
If you're good with electronics, maybe you can Dremel a new port, but I think it would still stick out a little.
So either they made it bigger at the top or put the port at the side.

And the support from up to 6 devices.. Thats only because Live allows 6 control surfaces. If there were only 4, only 4 would be supported. If it was unlimited, unlimited would be supported. I'm willing to bet this thing was never designed to use multiple of them. Its just technically possible to do so.
And if you really wanted to build a bigger launchpad using multiple of them, 4 would be the perfect number. You can place them so the top and scene buttons are all around the grid. Unfortunately there isn't a rotation parameter for the grid yet.

i dont bother about the usb port and ableton is not the wirght adress there anyway because the circuit board design is most likely in the hands of novation... otherwise ableton could have build the thing themself... anyway rather stupid that they havent done that... unlike Native instruments they havent trusted theier inhouse engineering abilitys there... or worried the cost to hire freelancers..

anyway.. the stuff that really sucks is the software implementation.. and thats the part that can be changed..

I just doubt that this will happen.. because it would have been easy to get it wright in the first place...ups...

i forgo... the ableton update cycle... the controler implementation is part of an ableton update..improovements there are defenetly sales arguments.. so it was actually wise from ableton to deliver the product slightly flawed..

if ypu need room for improovement you have to keep things rather ruff..


In the end of the day the Abes are the smartest..

Yeah. It works for tons of people so it must be flawed.
I always forget your opinion isn't an opinion, its a statement of the facts. How can any other opinion weigh up against that? Me thinks thou protests too much

[3phase]

Yeah. It works for tons of people so it must be flawed.
I always forget your opinion isn't an opinion, its a statement of the facts. How can any other opinion weigh up against that? Me thinks thou protests too much

yep.. the same way L8 worked for tons of people..so it wasnt flawed?

same as the situation back than.. i protest because nobody else is doing it...
And as long you dont use grouptracks or need indication for the selcted clip the LP just as launchpad works.. no question about that...

but that dont changes a thing that the details are not done well and as we see in this thread..

i am not the only user that sees his live performance hurt by the single step horizontal scrolling...

it´s just not optimized for stage use..


as with the apc.. you are better of to achive your live set with just 8 tracks and no grouptracks..

makes your live experiance with the dedicated controlers much better.

The lack of basic functionality can be fought with bome prestes from native cntrl...
But the question pops up why one has to spend extra money for very basic functions like haveing a user mode on the APC or user sliders on the LP