Integrating Live with a band on stage

[iwasborn]

Hey there

I'm looking to step into the wide world of Live-on-stage and have a bunch of questions. I've experimented with the program and done some searching around the forum and found answers to some, but still have a few. I hope someone out there might take pity on me and impart some quick & much-needed wisdom...

There won't be someone whose dedicated job is to tend to Live (on a Macbook Pro). The idea is that Live will be the overlord of all the electronic elements of the show and otherwise just kind of sit there. Improvisation via computer is not going to be an integral part of the system.

We are going to set this up in a single Live set with separate scenes for different songs (which seems to be the consensus on here).


We will need...

* to send a click to the drummer for each song
* to play 1 to 5 (or whatever) background tracks where appropriate, in time with the songs structure
* to trigger drum samples from a drum controller (the alesis control pad or something similar) with as little latency as is reasonable
* to trigger other samples from one or two other keyboard or MPC-style controllers.

We won't be using any plug-ins or 'Live instruments' - we'll just be triggering samples of one-off (or possibly looped) audio files from Live's sampler, simpler and/or impulse.


With backing tracks, and assuming again that improvisation isn't necessary, is it better (aka more stable and/or less taxing on the system) to use full-length song audio files for backing tracks?

Or would it still be better to break the audio files down into each songs verse/chorus/bridge/outro/etc structure so that we are using smaller bits of audio material?


As to the triggering, will using 2-3 separate devices (for different band members) to trigger samples from Live cause any stability issues?

Is it possible (and/or advisable) to have a single instance of Sampler (or Simpler, or Impulse...) and have each scene call up a different preset of samples/settings? So that the MIDI drum pad, for instance, will have its samples automatically changed when moving on to the next scene/song.


How about hard drives? For mixing and engineering work I use 7200 rpm drives for everything. The internal MBP hard drive is 5400. Since it'll only be streaming a few files and samples at once, perhaps internal is fine? What is the conventional wisdom there, and what have your experiences been?


So sorry to dump a thousand questions here!
Help & thoughts appreciated.

[Ziggy1234]

Hey there!
I'm looking into exactly the same things as you are so I figured we could share experiences. There doesn't seem to be a lot of information to do this sort of thing on the net (which is odd, because you can find answers to everything else).
I have divided up my songs into different clips for every part (intro, verse 1, chorus 1, etc.). Since we sometimes tend to change structures live (prolonging solo's etc,) this was necessary, but also if someone starts the song on the wrong cue, it's good to be able to trigger the next part without having to restart the whole song. I'm not sure if it's better or worse for computer performance...(i'd say it's more taxing, but i'm far from an expert..=)
We're running everything on a Macbook pro, and have still not had any problems.. But you never know. We're considering to move to a SSD harddrive, as we're mainly playing back backing tracks (sometimes quite a few of them). From what I have read, it makes very little difference to change from 5400rpm to 7200 on a MBP but I haven't tried it myself.
I haven't yet found a way to automate changes in live instruments when changing scenes, but I'd be very happy if anyone knows how to do this. It's just so annoying that you can't set up Ableton as different songs in one live set and have separate settings, active instruments, etc. for each songs (I know you can automate a lot of this, but it's still annoying) like you can do in Mainstage 2.
Speaking of which, in the last few weeks I've tried to do everything that you've talked about in Mainstage 2 and it's incredibly easy.
The only problem is that mainstage 2 is a ridiculously unstable and shitty piece of software (2 weeks of frustration coming back to me, sorry)
Launching backing tracks is very dodgy and half of the command only work every other time (like cycle between markers)
If they can improve stability, customization (not of layout, but of how to trigger, quantize, grid control, etc.) and reaction time to commands, it will be the best workstation for live gigging. Hopefully Mainstage 3 is gonna be great...=)

Anyway, enough rambling,
please keep me posted if you figure out a clever way to go about setting all of this up,
Cheeeeeers,
Ziggy

[carlosjhzapien]

We do exactly what you guys mentioned plus a bit more. We do improvisation on the fly, change my gt-8 guitar patches, change synth patches (using external synths), vocal effect patches (using external processors as well), video clips and lighting (for which we use another computer which is synched to live and receives MIDI signals for triggering) and also use Live's instruments and effects (operator, simpler, drum machines, electronica effects, etc).

We put the entire set in one Live Session, with each song split into sections, with one scene per section. This way we can improvise on (drums, guitar, bass, synth) solos, or vocal parts. Most of the scenes are triggered automatically using an automation MIDI track. We've assigned mostly everything to different mappings using Midi Channel 1 for actions and Channel 2 for controlling effects.

We are two in my band, a drummer who plays synths and sings as well, and myself, and I play everything else and sing. The idea when we started developing this two years ago after we lost our bassist and guitarist (ane were fed up auditioning people) was to make sure we could perform and sound like a regular band without having long pauses to change instruments and lose communication with the audience. This was supposed to be a temporary solution but it's become a complete new amazing set up. It's a challenge and learning to use the final system has been like learning to play a whole new instrument where each other instrument is just a part of the whole thing.

We use approximately 26 tracks, 3 of which are dedicated for Automated Actions, we use the Motu 828MKIII and the Maudio 2626 units connected via the ADAT. Each instrument uses a different output to ensure the bass, guitars, synths, piano, vocals, etc all go to different amps to get that real feeling and real sound. Now to answer your questions:

Hey there

We will need...

* to send a click to the drummer for each song
* to play 1 to 5 (or whatever) background tracks where appropriate, in time with the songs structure
* to trigger drum samples from a drum controller (the alesis control pad or something similar) with as little latency as is reasonable
* to trigger other samples from one or two other keyboard or MPC-style controllers.

1. We use a dedicated Mono output for the click which then we just patch back in through another input. This way we can use this click and apply it for different mixes. We have 2 send channels in Live plus using Cuemix (Motu's) we control the mix my drummer will get and the mix I will get. His for instance is more click and bass. We also use pre-recorded vocal cues to remind each other of what's next in the song.

2. For song structure I totally recommend the scenes, this way you can adapt the scenes launch tempo to your real band playing style. It's normal in live situations to speed up a little bit in more punchy parts, something you don't do in the studio but live will make it sound real an alive. We add half a bpm to 1.5 bpms from scene to scene sometimes to accomplish this.

3. If you have scenes this is also easy to set up and also to practice (for instance you can just say "let's take it from the bridge" and click on your MIDI pedalboard to go into that section-I use the FCB 1010 and also the wireless Pock, both of them amazing). Use a MIDI track to send the triggering signals to your drum controller.

4. Same thing for your other samples. The neat thing about connecting everything with Live is that you can send synch information out to the synth or sampler and it will lock itself into the tempo you have for the song. This also happens with my guitar effects, and it gives you peace of mind.

Hope this helps. Be patient, it's not something you set up and use in just a couple of hours, you need to put the time in, once you have it set up it works perfectly, but it just takes time to implement and test.

We're on facebook and on the net (http://www.zappien.com and http://www.facebook.com/zappienmusic). On our facebook page we have some pictures of our setup.

Best of luck!

[iwasborn]

hey there

thanks so much for the thoughtful reply.

your setup sounds great, but significantly more than we need (or want) to take on for now!

i think what i'm still a little confused about is how impulse (or sampler, or simpler) handles new songs via scenes, and this is sort of a basic requirement for what we want to do...

lets say there are 8 drum samples set from notes C1-G1 (or wherever) in one of the above programs. for the next song, a different group of 8 samples will need to be called up.

can a new 'scene' be set up to tell live to load a new set of 8 samples at the same MIDI notes, C1-G1? (or, another possible way to do it: can a new scene move the MIDI notes of pre-loaded samples around within a sampler program?)

thanks again for the reply, i appreciate it

[yur2die4]

Create each instance of your Impulse. Put an Instrument Rack into the channel you want to use for Impulse. Drag each instance of Impulse in. (it should show them each stacking above one another as racks).

Set the chain selector up so that each individual rack is selected at a different spot in the chain. From there you can assign a macro knob to the chain to be able to control it for easy reference. But the next step is important.

For each song's clips of that instrument, you create an automation that automates the selector chain of the master instrument rack. If you have an unlinked clip that loops endlessly, it should do the trick.

Now make sure to never change the position of that chain selector because the automation is relative to the current position of the knob.

[kilgore_trout]

Hi there- nice thread. This is exactly what I've been trying to piece together in the past few days. Basically all of our songs in one set to be played on stage. Live will control drums, synths and other loops so we can concentrate on our instruments but we still want enough flexibility to have longer solos, segues, jams etc.

Someone mentioned an automation midi track to control scene changes. That's exactly what I'm missing. Any pointers on how to get that going? I can't seem to get it to work correctly.

Thanks for any help:) If I come up with any good workflow ideas while experimenting I'll be sure to share as well. Cheers!

[yur2die4]

In order to automate scene changes you need to loop some midi back to ableton live. Here is a good example (there is a pt.2 also):

http://vimeo.com/8185092

[carlosjhzapien]

Hi there- nice thread. This is exactly what I've been trying to piece together in the past few days. Basically all of our songs in one set to be played on stage. Live will control drums, synths and other loops so we can concentrate on our instruments but we still want enough flexibility to have longer solos, segues, jams etc.

Someone mentioned an automation midi track to control scene changes. That's exactly what I'm missing. Any pointers on how to get that going? I can't seem to get it to work correctly.

Thanks for any help:) If I come up with any good workflow ideas while experimenting I'll be sure to share as well. Cheers!

Doing an automation MIDI track is relatively simple. You need to:

1. Map to MIDI the controls and actions you want to automate. For instance we automate turning effects on or off, turning channels on/off, stopping/launching clips, launching scenes, etc. For example you could have: Operator ON/OFF with note C3, Launch Scene with C4, Stop with D4, Stop ALL clips with E4, etc.

2. If you're using a MAC you'll need to configure the IAC driver, to start with you can set up 2 portsfor internal communication. If you use Windows you'll need a MIDI routing utility like MIDI-OX. You could also do the routing use BOMES, which adds the advantage of allowing you to convert MIDI intro keystrokes and viceversa.

3. In Ableton enable the MIDI port you configured either with the IAC or MIDI OX. Make sure it's setup as OUTPUT for NOTES and as INPUT for REMOTE. Make sure you don't takes notes as input in the same channel as you could end up with MIDI feedback which will create a little Ableton zombie lol.

4. Add a MIDI track to your set. This MIDI track will be the one used for automation purposes. The input for that track is not really that important as your actions will be pre-recorded. The output needs to go to the MIDI Output port. Then either record your actions or plan for them by creating MIDI clips for each scene. So you could say: On launching this scene I want to turn operator ON and trigger Clip A on measure 3. So you would put in the very beginning of your track a note C3 and say a note G4 (if that's what you used for mapping) on the first 1/8 of measure 3. Then on the last measure for the given scene, you add a C4 so that Ableton triggers the next scene automatically. Make sure you enable this in the configuration (select next scene on launch), it's one of the most useful features Ableton has!

And that's it, you're ready to play. Now we also added another track of pure effects stuff, so that we map it on a MIDI channel 2, and also have separate MIDI tracks for changing guitar patches and synth patches through their different MIDI ports.

Hope this helped.

[kilgore_trout]

Thanks a lot you guys, this is great - it's exactly what I was looking for. It would've taken me ages to find out about the IAC driver on my own - probably never This opens up some great room for experimenting. I'll get around to checking it out tomorrow. G'nite!

[kilgore_trout]

Hi, I have everything set up according to your recommendations (IAC driver, MIDI-trigger track, MIDI-map to notes, next scene on launch). I still have one problem though - when the "trigger" track triggers the next scene it doesn't actually start the scene it just arms it and the clip buttons begin flashing but they don't actually start playing. Maybe someone can tell me what I'm missing. I'fd be greatful for any further help. Cheers

[yur2die4]

Is the trigger note set Before the actual track is intended to play?

[carlosjhzapien]

Hi, I have everything set up according to your recommendations (IAC driver, MIDI-trigger track, MIDI-map to notes, next scene on launch). I still have one problem though - when the "trigger" track triggers the next scene it doesn't actually start the scene it just arms it and the clip buttons begin flashing but they don't actually start playing. Maybe someone can tell me what I'm missing. I'fd be greatful for any further help. Cheers

Ah this is because the scene will be activated at the end of the current unit of time you have selected. If you have it configured to 1 bar then it will blink until the curent bar is complete. If you have it at 1/2 a bar, then it will do it at the end of the 2 beats, and so on and so forth. You can also select it to be None and it will trigger immediately. We have it setup at 1/2 bar all the time and always send the launch mapped-note on the 3rd or 4th beat. Not that this is the best way, we just got used to doing it this way and gives us flexility while still keeping everything sounding tight. I'd say experiment with this option and you'll see.... You set it at the top of Ableton, it's a little drop down next to the "back to arrangement" icon/button which is also next to the bar/beat indicator.

[kilgore_trout]

Okay, I just tried that.
It doesn't seem to be working. This is what happens: the time marker hits the trigger-note the song freezes immediately and the next scene clips start flashing. I have to hit enter again to get the scene going. Weird. I'll keep playing around with it. Thanks for the help so far.

[dGarden]

maybe these kind of scene automation would be possible and more flexible with max for live ??
Any experiences ???

[kilgore_trout]

Hi, I finally solved the problem. After a day of frustration I finally picked up my mistake. As they say user error is one of the most prevalent bugs.

When I first mapped the note to trigger the next scene, I hit space bar to stop before leaving midi-map-mode. This mapped one of my trigger notes to scene change and to stop. I tried tons of different things until I noticed it. Stupid.

Now it works like a charm. Thanks again to all.